Review: Grand Prix Audio • Monaco 2.0 Turntable

tima

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I’m impressed Tim.
I heard the 1.5 in a very impressive Cessaro Liszt based setup and came away w great respect for the Monaco.
I have to say of all the uber contenders out there, SME30/12, Kronos Pro, AF1, the 2.0 is the one that floats my boat the most.
Before fans of these tts jump in and berate me for this opinion based on a non comparison, I’m guilty of stating this purely as a hunch.
For me I’m attracted more to the Monaco re it’s speed accuracy/stability attributes than the concept of counter rotational platters or uber vacuum hold down/air suspension/air bearing concepts.
And despite being pricey, the 2.0 is right at the lower end of stupid high end tt pricing.

For much of the modern era the focus has been on lowering noise and vibration abatement along with voltage stability into the motor. Cognizance of stable rotational accuracy was there but mostly at the level of lip service to wow and pitch stability - easy to understand why. Until something came along that showed those to be mere threshold standards, there was little causing sufficient awareness that might lead a manufacturer to focus sharply on the most fundamental of a 'table's jobs. Earlier Japanese DD 'tables made a fine go at it with the technologies of their time. Lots put into their restoration and preservation. Coming from outside any tradition, GPA was not bound; their's was a fresh start with a clean slate and an eye for the obvious. I speculate they worked only on a hunch that turned into a process of discovery, but their recognition of what is primary (spin the platter at 33-1/3 and do it quietly) was spot on. Just what the analog realm needs - fresh thinking. And a recognition that our ear/brain listening system - honed over many thousand years - is more sensitive than most analog implementations address.

Daveyf - out of professional courtesy I won't talk about MF's assessments of those two 'tables; saying that much may be more than enough.

The technology stuff is fun to talk about. Ultimately it is proved out by listening. It was by listening that the difference between the Monaco 1.5 and the 2.0 woke me up. The oceans rose and unicorns shat golden musical ducats. :)
 

spiritofmusic

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Tim, I remember full well the original Monaco 1.0 review by MF in Stereophile. A bigger example of being damned w faint praise I have yet to read. It caused quite the furore on Audiogon w proponents of the Monaco and DD apoplectic w rage at his cold words.
The weird thing is MF has been warmer twds other DDs since, like the Bardo, and this new SP10R.
I’m not sure what the 1.0 was really not doing for MF, because Roy Gregory loved it and wrote a glowing review. As he has done on the 1.5, and now 2.0
 

XV-1

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Tim, I remember full well the original Monaco 1.0 review by MF in Stereophile. A bigger example of being damned w faint praise I have yet to read. It caused quite the furore on Audiogon w proponents of the Monaco and DD apoplectic w rage at his cold words.
The weird thing is MF has been warmer twds other DDs since, like the Bardo, and this new SP10R.
I’m not sure what the 1.0 was really not doing for MF, because Roy Gregory loved it and wrote a glowing review. As he has done on the 1.5, and now 2.0

Its called system balance.

Fremers system is very neutral and I am sure some may say lean. When he inserted the neutral Monaco dd. Imo it moved his system into a little too yang. He likes a strong bass, where the DD table has accurate base.

Same thing with the Thales Simplicity tonearm. He likes the Kuzma 4point which has a energetic bass. The Thales is more neutral and imo pushed his system too mu h into the yang again.

Cheers
 

jfrech

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Its called system balance.

Fremers system is very neutral and I am sure some may say lean. When he inserted the neutral Monaco dd. Imo it moved his system into a little too yang. He likes a strong bass, where the DD table has accurate base.

Same thing with the Thales Simplicity tonearm. He likes the Kuzma 4point which has a energetic bass. The Thales is more neutral and imo pushed his system too mu h into the yang again.

Cheers

+1 - well said

We all have our biases and preferences. Plus I think the Monaco is reactive to the base it is placed on-like a lot of tables. A GPA stand is what it was designed on, I used mine on a Finite Elemente to great sounds until I moved later it to GPA stands...
 

spiritofmusic

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XV, I get that. But surely that’s contradicted by Fremer liking the Bardo DD that IMHO is even leaner than the Monaco?
 

XV-1

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XV, I get that. But surely that’s contradicted by Fremer liking the Bardo DD that IMHO is even leaner than the Monaco?

I don't believe the Bardo is leaner than the Monaco or anywhere as transparent. That is backed up by Fremers listening.

The Brinkman tables are known to be a little laid back in their musical delivery.
 

spiritofmusic

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XV, I’ve heard the Bardo and Monaco 1.5, albeit in v different systems.
I would contend the Bardo is leaner. Maybe you’re incorrect in your assertion re system balance.
If that is the case, does that mean every review has to be viewed thru the prism of reviewer bias and how his system compares to the reader’s system?
 

DaveyF

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If that is the case, does that mean every review has to be viewed thru the prism of reviewer bias and how his system compares to the reader’s system?

Absolutely, that is exactly what it means. I have heard many reviewer's systems...some are great, some are pathetic, IMHO. All are used by the particular reviewer as a reference! Like all a'philes and listener's, we all have our own "biases"....although some more than others. IMHO MF is not the arbiter of all that is great or good in the audiophile world; even though he and presumably many others would like to think so. What real credentials does he have, or for that matter any of the 'reviewer's' have for the job...?? Are those credentials that much better than yours...or mine??
 

jfrech

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scratch my original question - why is the Monaco now 50% more than it used to be?

The Parabolica offers slightly higher performance than the Monaco 1.0 or 1.5 for less money. The Monaco 2.0 is more ... b/c it can command it. It's pretty much that simple IMO
 

spiritofmusic

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Keith, twice the accuracy, twice the price.
 

KeithR

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The Monaco 2.0 is more ... b/c it can command it. It's pretty much that simple IMO

That's unfortunately how bad this industry has become.

But with the SP10/1000 coming out this year, TTs like this are going to struggle if not disappear.
 

spiritofmusic

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Keith, I don’t think so. I think it’ll be DDs like the Bardo that’ll be most hit.
Think about it, if you can consider putting down $37k on a Monaco 2.0, the SP10R may be of interest, but it’s price won’t be the deciding factor.
But if $20k w arm is the v maximum you can afford, and the Bardo w Brinkmann arm comes out near this, this is where the heat will be.
 

tima

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The Parabolica offers slightly higher performance than the Monaco 1.0 or 1.5 for less money. The Monaco 2.0 is more ... b/c it can command it. It's pretty much that simple IMO

The Parabolica offers slightly less performance than the Monaco 2.0 for $18k.

Why does the Kronos Pro ($38k) need a $13k power supply? Injecting price skews the discussion; turning it from the object of discussion ( a turntable) to someone's perception about value. Just because someone cannot afford a piece of gear does not change its sonic merit. (Not directed to you John.)

The smartypants answer to why the Monaco 2 costs more than the Monaco 1 is: listen to it and find out.

Talking about how a TT sounds and why, is far more interesting.
 

KeithR

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Keith, I don’t think so. I think it’ll be DDs like the Bardo that’ll be most hit.
Think about it, if you can consider putting down $37k on a Monaco 2.0, the SP10R may be of interest, but it’s price won’t be the deciding factor.
But if $20k w arm is the v maximum you can afford, and the Bardo w Brinkmann arm comes out near this, this is where the heat will be.

I think about it the other way. $37k doesn't include arm - $43k vs $20k is ginormous. How do you justify the difference to spend over double?

I would expect Brinkmann to see competition from Technics as well though in their higher up lines. The Bardo is much less than $20k with arm.

That all said, the proof is in the pudding and we don't have any SP10 or SP1000 full reviews as of yet. If Fremer gives a rave review, hi end watch out.
 

KeithR

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The Parabolica offers slightly less performance than the Monaco 2.0 for $18k.

Why does the Kronos Pro ($38k) need a $13k power supply? Injecting price skews the discussion; turning it from the object of discussion ( a turntable) to someone's perception about value. Just because someone cannot afford a piece of gear does not change its sonic merit. (Not directed to you John.)

The smartypants answer to why the Monaco 2 costs more than the Monaco 1 is: listen to it and find out.

because quite frankly the elephant in the hi end analog room is Technics and its making a lot of these guys look silly on "luxury" pricing.
 

spiritofmusic

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But Keith, Technics has massive economies of scale to be able to offer a potential giant killing high end DD at $10-20k for SP10R/SP1000R.
GPA certainly don’t have that advantage.
By the very fact of its existence and provenance w the SP10 iconic status/design, Technics would expect to sell shedloads more tts than GPA, even if GPA sold the 2.0 at $10k.
Of course that’s a different matter than the one re argument on uber high end pricing.
I mean, I can find a s/h flagship Sony DD motor/platter from the 70s for peanuts, put it in a custom plinth and excellent arm from the era like the SAEC506, and have plenty of change even over the new SP10R.
 

spiritofmusic

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And Keith, I’ve heard the Elac B6 spkrs at $500, and they kick the ass of high end spkrs 10x the price. Plenty of spkrs brands look silly too on luxury pricing, but we still buy in.
 
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asiufy

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I mean, I can find a s/h flagship Sony DD motor/platter from the 70s for peanuts, put it in a custom plinth and excellent arm from the era like the SAEC506, and have plenty of change even over the new SP10R.

Are you saying the SP10R is comparable to an old Sony DD motor from the '70s and that SAEC506 tonearm? You gotta be kidding me...
I know specs mean very little, but even the 1200G has a better specced motor than the SP10mk2.
And the SL-1000R is $18,000, not $20k.
 

XV-1

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Are you saying the SP10R is comparable to an old Sony DD motor from the '70s and that SAEC506 tonearm? You gotta be kidding me...
I know specs mean very little, but even the 1200G has a better specced motor than the SP10mk2.

Does not mean the SL1200G will sound better than a SP10mk2 .;) we shall have to wait and see.

feedback from owner of both SL1200 mk2 and the G.

Thanks for checking in.

I love the 1210GR. Very similar sound signature as my KAB modded SL1200. I was able to A/B them, although I only did this for a couple hours.

Both tables were connected to a GoldNote PH-10 phono stage, and both arms balanced for a Clearaudio Maestro V2 cart. For the test, I simply swapped out the headshells and played the same records.

The 1210GR had a smoother, louder sound, with slightly more detail on the majority of the albums I played. It wasn't huge, but definitely noticeable. There were a few albums I couldn't tell the difference, although always sounding great.

I'm happy with the SQ improvements overall, and my wife prefers the black over the silver, as do I.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/kab-sl-1200mk2-vs-new-sl-1200gr
 

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