WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

microstrip

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Sorry, Brad, I don't think you have heard anywhere near what the Magico Mini II can do. Probably in particular when it comes to micro-dynamics.

I can confirm it. Even the very low efficiency Magico M5 had great micro-dynamics. People like me, who are not horn devotes, think that perhaps some people mix micro-dynamics with enhanced detail and enhanced micro-dynamics coming from horn coloration. YMMV!
 

bonzo75

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I can confirm what Brad said.
 

microstrip

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For some reason they were measured such by a Canadian facility, yes. However, this does not conform with my experience. When I got the MM de Capo BE, I had to consistently lower the digital volume output on my then Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC by 1.5 to 2 points (on a scale from 0-60), compared to my old Ensemble Reference speakers of 90 dB sensitivity, in order to get the same SPL output.

This is consistent with, guess what, the specified sensitivity of 92 dB.

The Canadian facility reports true reliable anechoic measurements, that are systematically lower than manufacturer estimations of in room corrected measurements - sometimes by a couple or more dBs.

Anyway I owned the Ensemble Reference with the matching stands simultaneously with the Sonus Faber Amator and although I never took measurements I got the idea that they had lower efficiency than the Amators - I would not be surprised if they have got the correct number.

But yes, for daily use sometimes the anechoic sensitivity figure is misleading, as it does not include speaker dispersion and in room reflections. It is why without warning us many times a manufacturer lists an "equivalent" sensitivity figure, equally misleading ...
 

morricab

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Sorry, Brad, I don't think you have heard anywhere near what the Magico Mini II can do. Probably in particular when it comes to micro-dynamics.

Ok, Al, whatever you say. I have heard a LOT of Magicos though...my conclusion stands. How would you compare micro dynamics to your Ref 3as?? Those I know VERY well and can tell you they are well behind a good horn.
 

morricab

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I can confirm it. Even the very low efficiency Magico M5 had great micro-dynamics. People like me, who are not horn devotes, think that perhaps some people mix micro-dynamics with enhanced detail and enhanced micro-dynamics coming from horn coloration. YMMV!

no, they don't
 

Al M.

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The Canadian facility reports true reliable anechoic measurements, that are systematically lower than manufacturer estimations of in room corrected measurements - sometimes by a couple or more dBs.

That might explain the difference, but then those measured numbers are not a real-world scenario.

Anyway I owned the Ensemble Reference with the matching stands simultaneously with the Sonus Faber Amator and although I never took measurements I got the idea that they had lower efficiency than the Amators - I would not be surprised if they have got the correct number.

I once had DeVore minimonitors in my room, specified at 90 dB/W/m, just like the Ensemble Reference. They had exactly the same output volume as the Ensemble Reference. Unlike the Reference 3A De Capo MM BE which would have blown my ears out at the same volume setting.

But yes, for daily use sometimes the anechoic sensitivity figure is misleading, as it does not include speaker dispersion and in room reflections. It is why without warning us many times a manufacturer lists an "equivalent" sensitivity figure, equally misleading ...

I guess in general the importance of sensitivity figures is overblown. Yes, they are a broad guideline for what you can expect, but sometimes in the real world the underlying fine-print is in fact large screaming letters that fully invalidate expectations.
 

morricab

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The Canadian facility reports true reliable anechoic measurements, that are systematically lower than manufacturer estimations of in room corrected measurements - sometimes by a couple or more dBs.

Anyway I owned the Ensemble Reference with the matching stands simultaneously with the Sonus Faber Amator and although I never took measurements I got the idea that they had lower efficiency than the Amators - I would not be surprised if they have got the correct number.

But yes, for daily use sometimes the anechoic sensitivity figure is misleading, as it does not include speaker dispersion and in room reflections. It is why without warning us many times a manufacturer lists an "equivalent" sensitivity figure, equally misleading ...

From Stereophile on the De Capo i:

"The MM de Capo i's voltage sensitivity was above average, at an estimated 91dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is slightly but inconsequentially less than specified. Its impedance (fig.1) was reasonably benign, dropping below 6 ohms only in the lower midrange and the high treble. (The speaker is thus both sensitive and efficient.) The minimum value was 5.1 ohms at 10kHz, and the electrical phase angle was generally mild.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-measurements#7IiVLrLa3Xm93KzK.99"

It could be that the input voltage at the NRC was lower than 2.83V or the scale they are using is somehow wrong in the software they are using...it seems unlikely that Refs would take a 5db drop in sensitivity over the years...
 

microstrip

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Ok, Al, whatever you say. I have heard a LOT of Magicos though...my conclusion stands. How would you compare micro dynamics to your Ref 3as?? Those I know VERY well and can tell you they are well behind a good horn.

Although I understand we will never agree as our preferences differ a lot, can you list three easily available horn speakers that you consider as references of "good horns"?
 

morricab

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Although I understand we will never agree as our preferences differ a lot, can you list three easily available horn speakers that you consider as references of "good horns"?

hORNs Universum III
Tune Audio Anima
AC Symphonia (ok not that easily available...)

For something more like the size of a moderate boxes
Odeon No.32 or 38
AG Uno or Duo XD
Acapella Cellini or Violon
Voxativ Ampeggio (but this is a different breed again with single driver)

I would also add the AG Zero XD, which I have heard only in full active version...it has the resolution and the dynamics but not the tone...I would want to hear this in the part-active version (active bass only) and it might be THE killer at around 10K.
 

Al M.

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I can confirm what Brad said.

So Ked, how would you then characterize micro-dynamics on the Apogees? These are very inefficient speakers, no?
 

bonzo75

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Brad also mentioned stats. I said nothing about efficiency. Apogees, stats, horns, all more dynamic, better midrange, better bass with apogees and horns than with magico. I don't support higher efficiency is better argument, there are some horns that do it and some low sensitivity speakers that do.
 

microstrip

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From Stereophile on the De Capo i:

"The MM de Capo i's voltage sensitivity was above average, at an estimated 91dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is slightly but inconsequentially less than specified. Its impedance (fig.1) was reasonably benign, dropping below 6 ohms only in the lower midrange and the high treble. (The speaker is thus both sensitive and efficient.) The minimum value was 5.1 ohms at 10kHz, and the electrical phase angle was generally mild.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-measurements#7IiVLrLa3Xm93KzK.99"

It could be that the input voltage at the NRC was lower than 2.83V or the scale they are using is somehow wrong in the software they are using...it seems unlikely that Refs would take a 5db drop in sensitivity over the years...

Stereophile is just an example of a manufacturer measuring the speaker in room, and sometimes in different rooms - an using weighting techniques. Although anyone can make mistakes (or even typos :), Canada's National Research Council (NRC) is considered a reference standard measuring institution, and I can imagine that manufacturers would have complained if the measurement was wrong. But, as most of the time in these enjoyable endless debates we are free to pick what we prefer.

BTW, their latest measurements check for the compression effects you refer versus dynamics - they show deviation from linearity : Difference @ 90dB from 70dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m)

Just to end, courtesy of google, a link of some one who explains in detail a lot of what I have been saying https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-sensitivity-3134850. Although he does not say why, he seems to prefer higher-efficiency speakers - you will be happy! :)
 

morricab

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Stereophile is just an example of a manufacturer measuring the speaker in room, and sometimes in different rooms - an using weighting techniques. Although anyone can make mistakes (or even typos :), Canada's National Research Council (NRC) is considered a reference standard measuring institution, and I can imagine that manufacturers would have complained if the measurement was wrong. But, as most of the time in these enjoyable endless debates we are free to pick what we prefer.

BTW, their latest measurements check for the compression effects you refer versus dynamics - they show deviation from linearity : Difference @ 90dB from 70dB, 50Hz - 20kHz (measured @ 2m)

Just to end, courtesy of google, a link of some one who explains in detail a lot of what I have been saying https://www.lifewire.com/speaker-sensitivity-3134850. Although he does not say why, he seems to prefer higher-efficiency speakers - you will be happy! :)

Those are static level differences not dynamic shifts. That article you posted is kindergarten...really.
 

caesar

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All the full range ribbons I’ve heard have tended towards neutrality but this is still just relative to many speakers that are just less neutral ie a general lack of characteristics in themselves but they still do have characteristics so aren’t actually utterly neutral imo. As Ked says this sense of neutrality isn’t at all about sterility or analytical qualities in terms of presentation as both these traits are clear characteristics (and destructive ones if you are engaging in music rather than listening to sounds).

Which Symphonic Line amps are yours Caesar. The praise I’ve heard has specifically been about the top of the range which where anything but inexpensive amps in their day. Also which speakers are you running and which end of the sensitivity spectrum do they inhabit. Are they communicating music to you and what music do you listen to, just trying to get some data points from you if poss so I can understand where you are coming from with the op or are you just relating a trend you have read about.

Just to add another data point, Harbeths aren’t perfect but they can be amongst the most emotionally engaging speakers I have heard and they are barely mid 80s dB in sensitivity.

Hi Tao,
Yes, I have the original Kraft 400s, per the Stereophile review. And yes, they are as good as the review: https://www.stereophile.com/content/symphonic-line-kraft-400-monoblock-power-amplifier

It is the only amp I have encountered that obliterates the line between tubes and SS. I know this will hurt someone people's feelings, but it makes Pass amps sound like an amateur guitarist compared to Jimmy Hendrix.

The newer / smaller models are quite amazing also, but they are different. They use a different transistor for a more modern, more transparent sound. Used as mono-blocks, or in bi-amp situations, they are quite phenomenal also.

One common pairing for the Krafts is MBL, and one of the systems I run them on is MBL, and it's absolutely knock-out fantastic. The amps have great dynamics and also allow one to use a CAT or Jadis preamp for that tube tone & texture we discussing. They can do the big stuff and fireworks, but also small stuff with great delicacy. They are also great on Magicos, as well as any speaker that presents a tough load such as an Apogee, as Bonzo mentions above.

I have a several high end systems + several headphone systems for different experiences. I enjoy them all. I am not after a single truth - I like to experiment and have fun in this hobby, and there is something about high-efficiency speakers and horns that is so incredibly emotionally engaging, while forgetting that the audiophile vocabulary exists.
 

caesar

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quite late to this party but here are my thoughts on this issue:

1) truly live dynamic effect from reproduction requires not only high sensitivity but drivers that don't have an early onset of compression, either from mechanical or thermal effects. High sensitivity by definition means that the driver is very responsive to small inputs, which has great benefit for the retrieval of low level information and subtle "micro-dynamic" shifts that get glossed over by most speakers. These micro-dynamic shifts we hear readily live and it is a key signaler in the "live" feeling along with sudden macro-dynamic shifts that are not blunted or rounded off.

2) the problem with low sensitivity drivers (cones in particular but also ribbons...electrostats seem to behave differently) is that they are not very responsive to small inputs. This is due to mass, magnetic field strength and mechanical resistance to motion. The combination of these effects results in a driver that needs significant energization to move. This means a lot of micro information will be smoothed over or diminished in importance. This reduces the "live" feel and has nothing to do with the raw power of the amplifier driving it. On the macro end, low sensitivity drivers will, once sufficient current is flowing through them, have significant thermal effects where the onset of thermal compression sets in. Lest you think this can happen only with sustained high power, you are not correct...a driver will heat up very suddenly with dynamic peaks and effectively truncate those peaks, thus reducing their impact and "live" feel. This also cannot really be overcome with more power because the driver itself is losing sensitivity as it heats up. So, rather than getting 3db with every doubling of power you might get 2db or 1db or even 0db increase with a doubling of power...just an increased likeliness of burning out a driver.

3) electrostatic speakers behave differently from ribbons and cones. It has been my experience with numerous electrostatic speakers (stax, audiostatic, 3x acoustat) that even though they have low electrical sensitivity, they are still quite responsive to small signals, perhaps because they have relatively low mechanical resistance to motion. This means that they do very well at quiet volumes to mid-high volumes. Micro is well preserved as are tonality and spatial cues. With heavier foil they also will produce quite substantial bass (large panel of course). The stax els-f81s i had were some of the best low level speakers ever, perhaps due to have a very thin 4 micron thick film...exquiste with small music at moderate volumes. Also, unlike cones, they do not heat up so there is not a significant thermal compression issue...however, there is a significant mechanical excursion issue that limits dynamics, which is why the bigger the panel the higher the dynamic range normally (ironically also the higher the sensitivity). So, really big panels can do macro quite well (with a thicker foil of say 10 microns) and do micro quite well...smaller ones only do micro well. This can give a significant "live" feel for smaller ensembles but not really for the big stuff.

4) magetostatics need juice to wake up due to heavier foils and relatively low magentic strengths and have the same excursion limits like electrostats...the lighter the foil the better they will be at low levels (or stronger magentic fields). If a ribbon can be made high sensitivity using nd magnets then they can have superb dynamics both micro and macro (up to excursion limits). Standard low sensitivity ribbons will be somewhat lifeless for micro at normal volumes, necessitating "turning it up" to get the low level stuff out...like low sensitivity cones. High sensitivity ribbons (like tweeters) can be sota for dynamics and "live" feel. Only apogee of australia has made a somewhat high sensitivity full range ribbon...i would love to hear it as it could be a dream speaker. Just like cones, magnet strength and mass matter and a high sensitivity ribbon will beat a low one any day of the week for "live" feel.

5) complex crossovers eat power. The complex crossovers that most large, multi-way, speakers employ waste power and introduce a lot of reactance to the overall circuit that a lot of amps (especially those with global feedback) don't really like. This will impact power delivery, phase and distortion that will affect "live" feel of the sound.

6) single driver "full-range" drivers...well they are not really full-range unless loaded into a long horn, which has it's own potential issues. If not in a horn they are lively and give good "live" feel for micro but are limited macro and in bass. Used as a mid, like in horning, seems to be a not bad use for them and then with minimal crossover (see 5) and other high sensitivity drivers to make a good 2 or 3 way system that will do well with micro and macro...perhaps not the ultimate in "live" feel but interesting. Speakers here are around 95-100db/watt

7) smaller 2 or 3 way horns. Simlilar to 6 but with better "live" feel potential if good compression drivers with well designed horns are used. Cleaner micro and somewhat higher macro "live" feel. Easier to make coherent than larger horns (i will get to that soon), which helps with "live" feel for the music range they can handle. Bass is limited and can reduce "live" feel to some bass needy people. Adding a sub is tricky though. One of the easier speakers to get "live" feel from micro to macro with exception of really large musical works due to good driver integration. Typically sensitivity here is 95-105 db/watt

8) large, multiway horn systems. They have the highest potential for both micro and macro "live" feel but also the highest complexity and difficulty to get right. Despite the very high sensitivity they often miss live feel because of lack of coherence because of poor phase/time integration, which delivers a somewhat scrambled signal that no longer has that "snap" of live. This, btw., is also an issue with multi-way cones in addition to their lowish sensitivity. A mid-sensitivity speaker can have a lot more "live" feel than a big horn if it has a very good phase/time integration (thiel cs3.7s come to mind and vandersteen 7s). However, get the phase/time integration of a big horn right and it will surpass the rest. Btw, that integration is also part of what helps large full-range estats to have a good "live" feel up to their limits.

This last point is overlooked by those who don't think that phase/time coherence is important in audio reproduction but i think it is vital in getting "live" feel along with high sensitivity. You can get reasonable "live" feel with a mid-sensitivity, time-coherent speaker...ref 3a, thiel and vandersteen can do this pretty well...to a point...it cannot take it to the point of a big electrostat or mid-sized, time coherent horn or especially a large scale horn that has been carefully phase/time integrated.

wow! What a reply! Thank you for these insights!
 

Al M.

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I can confirm it. Even the very low efficiency Magico M5 had great micro-dynamics. People like me, who are not horn devotes, think that perhaps some people mix micro-dynamics with enhanced detail and enhanced micro-dynamics coming from horn coloration. YMMV!

Thanks for confirming.

At times I am wondering myself what the fuzz about horns and micro-dynamics is all about, or if there is sometimes an artificial effect going on as you allude to. While my system is nothing like live unamplified music, I don't miss much in the way of micro-dynamics compared to that reference. So if horns are supposed to do it so much better, I can nothing but wonder.

I once was very impressed with the overall dynamics of a 100dB sensitive horn speaker that I heard, the Volti Rival (great speaker, very uncolored sound!). Yet also here the microdynamics, while excellent, did not stand out to my ears as being substantially better than what I am used to.
 

bonzo75

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You haven't heard the right horns or panels, while we have heard many many Magicos.
 

microstrip

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You haven't heard the right horns or panels, while we have heard many many Magicos.

Can I ask exactly what you are addressing? You do not quote any previous post, your answer is diffuse.
 

jeff1225

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I have several friends that attend live shows weekly, they are committed to seeing a minimum of two shows a month. They have only liked horns in my system. The common complaint of the non-horn systems is that they are not dynamic and "boring." My current horns are their favorite due to the bass slam brought by the 15"s.
 

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