WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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Quite late to this party but here are my thoughts on this issue:

1) Truly live dynamic effect from reproduction requires not only high sensitivity but drivers that don't have an early onset of compression, either from mechanical or thermal effects. High sensitivity by definition means that the driver is very responsive to small inputs, which has great benefit for the retrieval of low level information and subtle "micro-dynamic" shifts that get glossed over by most speakers. These micro-dynamic shifts we hear readily live and it is a key signaler in the "live" feeling along with sudden macro-dynamic shifts that are not blunted or rounded off.

2) The problem with low sensitivity drivers (cones in particular but also ribbons...electrostats seem to behave differently) is that they are not very responsive to small inputs. This is due to mass, magnetic field strength and mechanical resistance to motion. The combination of these effects results in a driver that needs significant energization to move. This means a lot of micro information will be smoothed over or diminished in importance. This reduces the "live" feel and has nothing to do with the raw power of the amplifier driving it. On the macro end, low sensitivity drivers will, once sufficient current is flowing through them, have significant thermal effects where the onset of thermal compression sets in. Lest you think this can happen only with sustained high power, you are not correct...a driver will heat up very suddenly with dynamic peaks and effectively truncate those peaks, thus reducing their impact and "live" feel. This also cannot really be overcome with more power because the driver itself is LOSING sensitivity as it heats up. So, rather than getting 3db with every doubling of power you might get 2db or 1db or even 0db increase with a doubling of power...just an increased likeliness of burning out a driver.

3) Electrostatic speakers behave differently from ribbons and cones. It has been my experience with numerous electrostatic speakers (STAX, Audiostatic, 3x Acoustat) that even though they have low electrical sensitivity, they are still quite responsive to small signals, perhaps because they have relatively low mechanical resistance to motion. This means that they do very well at quiet volumes to mid-high volumes. Micro is well preserved as are tonality and spatial cues. With heavier foil they also will produce quite substantial bass (large panel of course). The STAX ELS-F81s I had were some of the best low level speakers ever, perhaps due to have a very thin 4 micron thick film...exquiste with small music at moderate volumes. Also, unlike cones, they do not heat up so there is not a significant thermal compression issue...however, there is a significant mechanical excursion issue that limits dynamics, which is why the bigger the panel the higher the dynamic range normally (ironically also the higher the sensitivity). So, really big panels can do macro quite well (with a thicker foil of say 10 microns) and do micro quite well...smaller ones only do micro well. This can give a significant "live" feel for smaller ensembles but not really for the big stuff.

4) Magetostatics need juice to wake up due to heavier foils and relatively low magentic strengths and have the same excursion limits like electrostats...the lighter the foil the better they will be at low levels (or stronger magentic fields). If a ribbon can be made high sensitivity using Nd magnets then they can have superb dynamics both micro and macro (up to excursion limits). Standard low sensitivity ribbons will be somewhat lifeless for micro at normal volumes, necessitating "turning it up" to get the low level stuff out...like low sensitivity cones. High sensitivity ribbons (like tweeters) can be SOTA for dynamics and "live" feel. Only Apogee of Australia has made a somewhat high sensitivity full range ribbon...I would love to hear it as it could be a dream speaker. Just like cones, magnet strength and mass matter and a high sensitivity ribbon will beat a low one any day of the week for "live" feel.

5) Complex crossovers eat power. The complex crossovers that most large, multi-way, speakers employ waste power and introduce a lot of reactance to the overall circuit that a lot of amps (especially those with global feedback) don't really like. This will impact power delivery, phase and distortion that will affect "live" feel of the sound.

6) Single driver "full-range" drivers...well they are not really full-range unless loaded into a long horn, which has it's own potential issues. If not in a horn they are lively and give good "live" feel for micro but are limited macro and in bass. Used as a mid, like in Horning, seems to be a not bad use for them and then with minimal crossover (see 5) and other high sensitivity drivers to make a good 2 or 3 way system that will do well with micro and macro...perhaps not the ultimate in "live" feel but interesting. Speakers here are around 95-100db/watt

7) Smaller 2 or 3 way horns. Simlilar to 6 but with better "live" feel potential if good compression drivers with well designed horns are used. Cleaner micro and somewhat higher macro "live" feel. Easier to make coherent than larger horns (I will get to that soon), which helps with "live" feel for the music range they can handle. Bass is limited and can reduce "live" feel to some bass needy people. Adding a sub is tricky though. One of the easier speakers to get "live" feel from micro to macro with exception of really large musical works due to good driver integration. typically sensitivity here is 95-105 db/watt

8) Large, multiway horn systems. They have the highest potential for both micro and macro "live" feel but also the highest complexity and difficulty to get right. Despite the very high sensitivity they often miss live feel because of lack of coherence because of poor phase/time integration, which delivers a somewhat scrambled signal that no longer has that "snap" of live. This, btw., is also an issue with multi-way cones in addition to their lowish sensitivity. A mid-sensitivity speaker can have a lot more "live" feel than a big horn if it has a very good Phase/time integration (Thiel CS3.7s come to mind and Vandersteen 7s). However, get the phase/time integration of a big horn right and it will surpass the rest. BTW, that integration is also part of what helps large full-range estats to have a good "live" feel up to their limits.

This last point is overlooked by those who don't think that phase/time coherence is important in audio reproduction but I think it is vital in getting "live" feel along with high sensitivity. You CAN get reasonable "live" feel with a mid-sensitivity, time-coherent speaker...Ref 3a, Thiel and Vandersteen can do this pretty well...to a point...it cannot take it to the point of a big electrostat or mid-sized, time coherent horn or especially a large scale horn that has been carefully phase/time integrated.
 

spiritofmusic

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And what’s your thought on a true FR horn like Pnoe that uses an AER driver to cover 30Hz to 60kHz?
 

spiritofmusic

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Sure, I know someone who was in the market for a pr Pnoes. He found them transcendent, w absolutely no compromises at all. He has classical music running in his blood, is an extremely astute judge, fully aware of the major drawbacks of most commercial horns. For him to unreservedly love the Pnoes is high praise indeed.
These are not the flawed Pnoes reviews by 6Ms a few yrs back, these ones have the stellar absolute FR updated AER driver.
Unfortunately he struggled to reconcile the idea of 7’ high horns in his listening space, and has moved on.
I think Sean Casey of Zu was v canny in realising some of the limitations of the FR/single driver concept.
For him, he was adamant he wanted the frequencies covered by his 10” FR drivers to extend over the octaves range of the human voice, 40Hz to 12kHz, thence augmented by Class D powered subs below 40Hz to try and reach 20Hz and a semi-horn loaded Radian (super) tweeter to go to 20kHz+.
What results is the full advantages of FR/zero crossover over a broad upper bass-lower mids-mids-upper mids-lower tweeter range, w additional help at frequency extremes.
It’s a totally compelling sound despite some obvious flaws.
Any Zu naysayers need to visit me to hear how I’ve made them sing. Only a decade-long project LOL.
 

microstrip

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Quite late to this party but here are my thoughts on this issue:

1) Truly live dynamic effect from reproduction requires not only high sensitivity but drivers that don't have an early onset of compression, either from mechanical or thermal effects. High sensitivity by definition means that the driver is very responsive to small inputs, which has great benefit for the retrieval of low level information and subtle "micro-dynamic" shifts that get glossed over by most speakers. These micro-dynamic shifts we hear readily live and it is a key signaler in the "live" feeling along with sudden macro-dynamic shifts that are not blunted or rounded off.

2) The problem with low sensitivity drivers (cones in particular but also ribbons...electrostats seem to behave differently) is that they are not very responsive to small inputs. This is due to mass, magnetic field strength and mechanical resistance to motion. The combination of these effects results in a driver that needs significant energization to move. This means a lot of micro information will be smoothed over or diminished in importance. This reduces the "live" feel and has nothing to do with the raw power of the amplifier driving it. On the macro end, low sensitivity drivers will, once sufficient current is flowing through them, have significant thermal effects where the onset of thermal compression sets in. Lest you think this can happen only with sustained high power, you are not correct...a driver will heat up very suddenly with dynamic peaks and effectively truncate those peaks, thus reducing their impact and "live" feel. This also cannot really be overcome with more power because the driver itself is LOSING sensitivity as it heats up. So, rather than getting 3db with every doubling of power you might get 2db or 1db or even 0db increase with a doubling of power...just an increased likeliness of burning out a driver.

3) Electrostatic speakers behave differently from ribbons and cones. It has been my experience with numerous electrostatic speakers (STAX, Audiostatic, 3x Acoustat) that even though they have low electrical sensitivity, they are still quite responsive to small signals, perhaps because they have relatively low mechanical resistance to motion. This means that they do very well at quiet volumes to mid-high volumes. Micro is well preserved as are tonality and spatial cues. With heavier foil they also will produce quite substantial bass (large panel of course). The STAX ELS-F81s I had were some of the best low level speakers ever, perhaps due to have a very thin 4 micron thick film...exquiste with small music at moderate volumes. Also, unlike cones, they do not heat up so there is not a significant thermal compression issue...however, there is a significant mechanical excursion issue that limits dynamics, which is why the bigger the panel the higher the dynamic range normally (ironically also the higher the sensitivity). So, really big panels can do macro quite well (with a thicker foil of say 10 microns) and do micro quite well...smaller ones only do micro well. This can give a significant "live" feel for smaller ensembles but not really for the big stuff.

4) Magetostatics need juice to wake up due to heavier foils and relatively low magentic strengths and have the same excursion limits like electrostats...the lighter the foil the better they will be at low levels (or stronger magentic fields). If a ribbon can be made high sensitivity using Nd magnets then they can have superb dynamics both micro and macro (up to excursion limits). Standard low sensitivity ribbons will be somewhat lifeless for micro at normal volumes, necessitating "turning it up" to get the low level stuff out...like low sensitivity cones. High sensitivity ribbons (like tweeters) can be SOTA for dynamics and "live" feel. Only Apogee of Australia has made a somewhat high sensitivity full range ribbon...I would love to hear it as it could be a dream speaker. Just like cones, magnet strength and mass matter and a high sensitivity ribbon will beat a low one any day of the week for "live" feel.

5) Complex crossovers eat power. The complex crossovers that most large, multi-way, speakers employ waste power and introduce a lot of reactance to the overall circuit that a lot of amps (especially those with global feedback) don't really like. This will impact power delivery, phase and distortion that will affect "live" feel of the sound.

6) Single driver "full-range" drivers...well they are not really full-range unless loaded into a long horn, which has it's own potential issues. If not in a horn they are lively and give good "live" feel for micro but are limited macro and in bass. Used as a mid, like in Horning, seems to be a not bad use for them and then with minimal crossover (see 5) and other high sensitivity drivers to make a good 2 or 3 way system that will do well with micro and macro...perhaps not the ultimate in "live" feel but interesting. Speakers here are around 95-100db/watt

7) Smaller 2 or 3 way horns. Simlilar to 6 but with better "live" feel potential if good compression drivers with well designed horns are used. Cleaner micro and somewhat higher macro "live" feel. Easier to make coherent than larger horns (I will get to that soon), which helps with "live" feel for the music range they can handle. Bass is limited and can reduce "live" feel to some bass needy people. Adding a sub is tricky though. One of the easier speakers to get "live" feel from micro to macro with exception of really large musical works due to good driver integration. typically sensitivity here is 95-105 db/watt

8) Large, multiway horn systems. They have the highest potential for both micro and macro "live" feel but also the highest complexity and difficulty to get right. Despite the very high sensitivity they often miss live feel because of lack of coherence because of poor phase/time integration, which delivers a somewhat scrambled signal that no longer has that "snap" of live. This, btw., is also an issue with multi-way cones in addition to their lowish sensitivity. A mid-sensitivity speaker can have a lot more "live" feel than a big horn if it has a very good Phase/time integration (Thiel CS3.7s come to mind and Vandersteen 7s). However, get the phase/time integration of a big horn right and it will surpass the rest. BTW, that integration is also part of what helps large full-range estats to have a good "live" feel up to their limits.

This last point is overlooked by those who don't think that phase/time coherence is important in audio reproduction but I think it is vital in getting "live" feel along with high sensitivity. You CAN get reasonable "live" feel with a mid-sensitivity, time-coherent speaker...Ref 3a, Thiel and Vandersteen can do this pretty well...to a point...it cannot take it to the point of a big electrostat or mid-sized, time coherent horn or especially a large scale horn that has been carefully phase/time integrated.

A few notes and points of disagreement.

1. The classic misconception of sensitivity in this subject, mixing the concepts of sensitivity and efficiency. As long as the electronics are linear and noise free, the outcome does not change with efficiency. A low efficiency speaker can be very sensitive.

2. Just feelings, nothing related with physics. Measurements show that most of these less sensitive systems - even at 86 db/W are extremely linear and do not compress at any levels. Surely I am not addressing poorly designed speakers.

3. Large area electrostatic have high resistance to motion due to their acoustic resistance. Peter Walker wrote about it - they typically drive a few cube meters of air with a mass of the order of kilograms. Different foil thickness or brands have different mechanical parameters that change resonances and the characteristic electrostatic sound. Nothing magic here.

5. What is the problem of needing power if high quality power is available?

Just a note - our "live feel" is an extremely subjective concept, mostly due to our sound reproduction preferences, as well of that of those who share them. For any similar general rule as those you outlined we can find several exceptions.
 

Al M.

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Quite late to this party but here are my thoughts on this issue:

1) Truly live dynamic effect from reproduction requires not only high sensitivity but drivers that don't have an early onset of compression, either from mechanical or thermal effects. High sensitivity by definition means that the driver is very responsive to small inputs, which has great benefit for the retrieval of low level information and subtle "micro-dynamic" shifts that get glossed over by most speakers. These micro-dynamic shifts we hear readily live and it is a key signaler in the "live" feeling along with sudden macro-dynamic shifts that are not blunted or rounded off.

2) The problem with low sensitivity drivers (cones in particular but also ribbons...electrostats seem to behave differently) is that they are not very responsive to small inputs. This is due to mass, magnetic field strength and mechanical resistance to motion. The combination of these effects results in a driver that needs significant energization to move. This means a lot of micro information will be smoothed over or diminished in importance. This reduces the "live" feel and has nothing to do with the raw power of the amplifier driving it. On the macro end, low sensitivity drivers will, once sufficient current is flowing through them, have significant thermal effects where the onset of thermal compression sets in. Lest you think this can happen only with sustained high power, you are not correct...a driver will heat up very suddenly with dynamic peaks and effectively truncate those peaks, thus reducing their impact and "live" feel. This also cannot really be overcome with more power because the driver itself is LOSING sensitivity as it heats up. So, rather than getting 3db with every doubling of power you might get 2db or 1db or even 0db increase with a doubling of power...just an increased likeliness of burning out a driver.

You may have a point here, trend wise. There were highly regarded low-sensitivity speakers, with highly complex crossovers, in the Nineties that were just dynamically dead and lifeless. Truly awful. Impressive aural wallpaper rather than music. It was in some sense the dark ages of high-end audio.

On the other hand, this is no rigid rule. I have heard the Magico Mini II monitors which not only have low nominal sensitivity (87 dB) but require lots of amp power, portraying exquisite micro-dynamics as well as great macro-dynamics. Just wonderful liveliness.
 

bach_king

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That’s a very good analogy. With low efficiency speakers much of the amplifiers power is wasted fighting the natural resistance in the speaker or more accurately in the crossover. It is much more difficult to accurately represent the dynamics present in recording using LE speakers and it requires more power for the peaks which may not be present. However there is no doubt in my mind that many LE systems can sound superb. For example modern Quad Electrostatics. The truth I suspect is that there are always exceptions to the rule which is one of the eternal fascinations of the hobby.

David
 

Al M.

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The truth I suspect is that there are always exceptions to the rule which is one of the eternal fascinations of the hobby.

Well said, David.
 

christoph

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Dec 11, 2015
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People cannot appreciate Apogees because they are nowhere to be seen or heard easily. Since I have heard Apogees + KSA-100 fed by a phono direct, back in the 80s, I know exactly what you write. So much so that I was about to buy a refurbished pair about 10 years ago, but the price was prohibitive for me back then with the outboard Mundorf crossover I wanted. Moreover, others also equally cannot appreciate modified MLs, because they are scarce as well; I do, but we are in the tiniest of minorities. And as you write, driving them correctly is quite critical. I'd be curious to listen to Apogees with modern SS amps, though the KSA-100 raised goosebumps on them even 30 years ago... and that treble purity, oh gosh!

My ex-Scinnies are being driven by an overhauled Krell KSA 100 MK2 by the new owner.
I much preferred my Lamm hybrid class A monos M1.1 by a big margin on those Scinnies.
 

microstrip

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You may have a point here, trend wise. There were highly regarded low-sensitivity speakers, with highly complex crossovers, in the Nineties that were just dynamically dead and lifeless. Truly awful. Impressive aural wallpaper rather than music. It was in some sense the dark ages of high-end audio.

On the other hand, this is no rigid rule. I have heard the Magico Mini II monitors which not only have low nominal sensitivity (87 dB) but require lots of amp power, portraying exquisite micro-dynamics as well as great macro-dynamics. Just wonderful liveliness.

Aren't the Reference 3A MM de Capo BE also just 86.7 dB/W?
 

Pb Blimp

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Indeed, there is a problem of amps that cannot do what they say... some manufacturers grossly overcall their power. Example is the "350w" plate amps that ATC speakers use, were they to actually put out 350w regularly, you'd have the start of a bonfire. Now Pass, under rates his so they typically can deliver more than they spec. But even most equipment that can produce what they claim, somewhat regularly, still could not play a sinewave at that power rating. Very few companies build for full continuous output.

And, I think you have a typo. P(Watts) = V*C. As in Power is watts, not made of them, and it is derived from voltage multiplied by current. Another way to look at current is to see the draw, which is calculated like this I=V/R so we see that the impedance defines the current. This is why amps are rated and 4 and 8 ohm, because they cause different current responses.

Yes of course. Good catch.
 

morricab

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A few notes and points of disagreement.

1. The classic misconception of sensitivity in this subject, mixing the concepts of sensitivity and efficiency. As long as the electronics are linear and noise free, the outcome does not change with efficiency. A low efficiency speaker can be very sensitive.

2. Just feelings, nothing related with physics. Measurements show that most of these less sensitive systems - even at 86 db/W are extremely linear and do not compress at any levels. Surely I am not addressing poorly designed speakers.

3. Large area electrostatic have high resistance to motion due to their acoustic resistance. Peter Walker wrote about it - they typically drive a few cube meters of air with a mass of the order of kilograms. Different foil thickness or brands have different mechanical parameters that change resonances and the characteristic electrostatic sound. Nothing magic here.

5. What is the problem of needing power if high quality power is available?

Just a note - our "live feel" is an extremely subjective concept, mostly due to our sound reproduction preferences, as well of that of those who share them. For any similar general rule as those you outlined we can find several exceptions.



http://www.tonmeister.ca/wordpress/2014/01/16/bo-tech-thermal-compression-compensation/

As to the electrostatic panel, air is quite compressable like a spring, so soft motion won't resist much but large motions will resist progressively. This means microdynamics will not be greatly affected except perhaps riding on top of high amplitude excursions.

needing high power = hot voice coils = drop in sensitivity.
 

morricab

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That’s a very good analogy. With low efficiency speakers much of the amplifiers power is wasted fighting the natural resistance in the speaker or more accurately in the crossover. It is much more difficult to accurately represent the dynamics present in recording using LE speakers and it requires more power for the peaks which may not be present. However there is no doubt in my mind that many LE systems can sound superb. For example modern Quad Electrostatics. The truth I suspect is that there are always exceptions to the rule which is one of the eternal fascinations of the hobby.

David

See point 3 regarding electrostats.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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You may have a point here, trend wise. There were highly regarded low-sensitivity speakers, with highly complex crossovers, in the Nineties that were just dynamically dead and lifeless. Truly awful. Impressive aural wallpaper rather than music. It was in some sense the dark ages of high-end audio.

On the other hand, this is no rigid rule. I have heard the Magico Mini II monitors which not only have low nominal sensitivity (87 dB) but require lots of amp power, portraying exquisite micro-dynamics as well as great macro-dynamics. Just wonderful liveliness.

Its all relative I guess...no one would say that the Magico has great macro-dynamics compared to a well sorted horn, nor would it have great micro dynamics compared to nice electrostats or a well sorted horn. Your speakers (the Ref 3as) are quite good for upper mid-sensitivity monitors but not compared to a well sorted horn for macro/micro or a well sorted electrostat for micro. Coherence helps a lot in the perception...this the Refs have.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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5. What is the problem of needing power if high quality power is available?

You're opening a new thread with this one, even when considering the best of each type there are major sonic differences between topologies and what you lose in sound quality as you up the power and demand.

Just a note - our "live feel" is an extremely subjective concept, mostly due to our sound reproduction preferences, as well of that of those who share them. For any similar general rule as those you outlined we can find several exceptions.

Our "live feel" isn't a standard, "LIVE" is a different thing and the standard wether you want it or not.

david
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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A few notes and points of disagreement.

1. The classic misconception of sensitivity in this subject, mixing the concepts of sensitivity and efficiency. As long as the electronics are linear and noise free, the outcome does not change with efficiency. A low efficiency speaker can be very sensitive.

2. Just feelings, nothing related with physics. Measurements show that most of these less sensitive systems - even at 86 db/W are extremely linear and do not compress at any levels. Surely I am not addressing poorly designed speakers.

3. Large area electrostatic have high resistance to motion due to their acoustic resistance. Peter Walker wrote about it - they typically drive a few cube meters of air with a mass of the order of kilograms. Different foil thickness or brands have different mechanical parameters that change resonances and the characteristic electrostatic sound. Nothing magic here.

5. What is the problem of needing power if high quality power is available?

Just a note - our "live feel" is an extremely subjective concept, mostly due to our sound reproduction preferences, as well of that of those who share them. For any similar general rule as those you outlined we can find several exceptions.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/power-compression-vs-thermal-distortion-loudspeaker-alexander-wilson
 

Al M.

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Aren't the Reference 3A MM de Capo BE also just 86.7 dB/W?

For some reason they were measured such by a Canadian facility, yes. However, this does not conform with my experience. When I got the MM de Capo BE, I had to consistently lower the digital volume output on my then Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC by 1.5 to 2 points (on a scale from 0-60), compared to my old Ensemble Reference speakers of 90 dB sensitivity, in order to get the same SPL output.

This is consistent with, guess what, the specified sensitivity of 92 dB.
 

Al M.

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Its all relative I guess...no one would say that the Magico has great macro-dynamics compared to a well sorted horn, nor would it have great micro dynamics compared to nice electrostats or a well sorted horn.

Sorry, Brad, I don't think you have heard anywhere near what the Magico Mini II can do. Probably in particular when it comes to micro-dynamics.
 

microstrip

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A typical example on how oversimplifying physical situations and overestimating partial results in a product formula we can arrive at the wrong conclusion ...

Manufacturers measure drivers in pulse dynamic worst type conditions and show their results. Although poor units can suffer from thermal compression, it is not a problem with current top units. See for example the Dynaudio or Skanspeak data sheets from the 80's showing measurements carried with tone-bursts. The situation has completely changed since these effects were reported. This is WBF, not WBAMF (what what is the best in the audio museum forum).

BTW, I have carried experimental work to measure such effects - it is very simple to do, as it is not possible to measure the temperature instantaneously from the coil, it is indirectly measured from the resistance variation.
 

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