WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

Ron Resnick

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Anyone understand WHY -on average - the high efficiency models grab the emotions, while so many lower-efficiency models sound like a check list of the audiophile vocabulary?

Obviously this is a subjective hobby. If you don't find this is the case, please stay out of the thread.

I think there is something to this. It is a generalization, which occasions all of the usual caveats, but I think it is relatively easier to get dynamics and fast "rise time" out of a higher sensitivity speaker, properly driven, than a lower sensitivity speaker.

Maybe it is just that it is easier to achieve proper amplifier drive with a high sensitivity speaker than it is with a lower sensitivity speaker.
 

Ron Resnick

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. . . Specifically, the need to not just match an inefficient speaker with a "high power" amp but matching the speaker to an an amp with high current reserves at the frequencies where impedance drops and phase angel approaches 45 degrees. If this is done properly, in my experience, even an inefficient speaker should maintain its relative dynamics at a lower volume.

Doesn't solving for that equation require one to acquire that technical information from the speaker designer? Do most speaker designers even measure their own speakers' phase angle at different frequencies?
 

Ron Resnick

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. . . One day, I'd clearly prefer one system, but ask me the next day, and my preference might be on a totally different one. That's why I understand (and respect) folks having options (for amps, tonearms, tables, cartridges, even speakers) as once you become intimately familiar with different results, it's very hard to pick one all the time. I would change opinion many times, within a single day :)

I like to concentrate resources so I am strictly a one-system person. But if I had to plan a second system it would be a limited purpose high-sensitivity horn system driven by a relatively high power SET (like Lamm ML3 or Viva Aurora) specifically for listening to instrumental jazz.
 

Pb Blimp

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Doesn't solving for that equation require one to acquire that technical information from the speaker designer? Do most speaker designers even measure their own speakers' phase angle at different frequencies?

The lack of measurements doesn't preclude the physics from being true. Some manufacturers measure, some don't, but the good ones will at a minimum be able to tell you accurately what kind of power (current) you need across the entire frequency range to optimize performance.
 

Folsom

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Do most speaker designers even measure their own speakers' phase angle at different frequencies?

Does Mercedes check and adjust for ignition timing after designing a new motor?

All speakers drivers vary in phase at different frequencies. If they did not, they would not be moving and therefor could not make sound.
 

morricab

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I think there is something to this. It is a generalization, which occasions all of the usual caveats, but I think it is relatively easier to get dynamics and fast "rise time" out of a higher sensitivity speaker, properly driven, than a lower sensitivity speaker.

Maybe it is just that it is easier to achieve proper amplifier drive with a high sensitivity speaker than it is with a lower sensitivity speaker.


capturing the subtlety of the music requires motion of a driver with very little input signal. This means low mass and high magnet field strength... the ability to scale a large dynamic peak without compression is also key. If you get really loud already with only 1 watt where it normally takes 10 watts (97db vs. 87db for example) the heating on the voice coil is very different in that 10 or 100 ms burst. Also, the excursion required is usually very different. I have a single driver Fostex speaker (Decware HDT) and this driver simply barely moves even at high levels of bass (note it is not horn loaded but a combination vented/transmission line concept). It scales dynamics rather well and at low levels too the feeling of dynamic impact is there...it is nearly as good at this as my 2-way backloaded horn Odeons...and better at it than my smaller Odeons, which are 3db less sensitive than the HDTs and the drop in micro dynamics is noticeable.
 

awsmone

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capturing the subtlety of the music requires motion of a driver with very little input signal. This means low mass and high magnet field strength... the ability to scale a large dynamic peak without compression is also key. If you get really loud already with only 1 watt where it normally takes 10 watts (97db vs. 87db for example) the heating on the voice coil is very different in that 10 or 100 ms burst. Also, the excursion required is usually very different. I have a single driver Fostex speaker (Decware HDT) and this driver simply barely moves even at high levels of bass (note it is not horn loaded but a combination vented/transmission line concept). It scales dynamics rather well and at low levels too the feeling of dynamic impact is there...it is nearly as good at this as my 2-way backloaded horn Odeons...and better at it than my smaller Odeons, which are 3db less sensitive than the HDTs and the drop in micro dynamics is noticeable.

Paul Klipsch wrote a paper I think in February 1970 perhaps earlier that horn speakers had lower FMD and AMD than cone drivers because there was a lot lower movement required to degenerate a given sound level, and an effect of the impedance coupling of horns

This paper was back both by the mathematics and actual comparative measurements, seems the science/arguments/hypothesis were more advanced in the 1960s and 1970s than now Lol
 

morricab

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Paul Klipsch wrote a paper I think in February 1970 perhaps earlier that horn speakers had lower FMD and AMD than cone drivers because there was a lot lower movement required to degenerate a given sound level, and an effect of the impedance coupling of horns

This paper was back both by the mathematics and actual comparative measurements, seems the science/arguments/hypothesis were more advanced in the 1960s and 1970s than now Lol

I would expect less doppler distortion effects and less driver breakup artifiacts as well. The 10 inch doped paper woofers in my Odeon La Bohemes never visibly move, even with bass heavy Yello at relatively high volumes (ones that make conventional speakers pump the woofer several mm). So driver excursion is probably < 1 mm no matter what. Same with my Odeon Rigolettos...they also never visibly move...also back hornloaded. What really surprised me is the lack of motion from my single driver Decware HDTs, which have a modified Fostex F206E. Given it is not horn loaded I expected nearly normal speaker driver excursions...nope! Moves a bit more than the horns but excursions are limited and the suspension is quite stiff.
 

awsmone

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That’s correct, there is much less Doppler induced FMD with horns, but AMD is an ordered of magnitude worse with conventional drivers
 

Pb Blimp

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capturing the subtlety of the music requires motion of a driver with very little input signal. This means low mass and high magnet field strength... the ability to scale a large dynamic peak without compression is also key. If you get really loud already with only 1 watt where it normally takes 10 watts (97db vs. 87db for example) the heating on the voice coil is very different in that 10 or 100 ms burst. Also, the excursion required is usually very different. I have a single driver Fostex speaker (Decware HDT) and this driver simply barely moves even at high levels of bass (note it is not horn loaded but a combination vented/transmission line concept). It scales dynamics rather well and at low levels too the feeling of dynamic impact is there...it is nearly as good at this as my 2-way backloaded horn Odeons...and better at it than my smaller Odeons, which are 3db less sensitive than the HDTs and the drop in micro dynamics is noticeable.

I disagree with the term requires. You may want to argue the subtlety is captured more easily but IMO it is simply not true less efficient speakers can't accomplish subtlety. Pointing to an exception does not prove the rule. I still believe amplifier speaker matching is the key to what we are discussing here more than the speakers inherent topology.
 

Pb Blimp

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Paul Klipsch wrote a paper I think in February 1970 perhaps earlier that horn speakers had lower FMD and AMD than cone drivers because there was a lot lower movement required to degenerate a given sound level, and an effect of the impedance coupling of horns

This paper was back both by the mathematics and actual comparative measurements, seems the science/arguments/hypothesis were more advanced in the 1960s and 1970s than now Lol

I have owned a lot of Klipsch stuff over the years but material science used in modern speakers has come a long, long way since Paul's days.
 

Al M.

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I disagree with the term requires. You may want to argue the subtlety is captured more easily but IMO it is simply not true less efficient speakers can't accomplish subtlety. Pointing to an exception does not prove the rule. I still believe amplifier speaker matching is the key to what we are discussing here more than the speakers inherent topology.

+1
 

andromedaaudio

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Doesn't solving for that equation require one to acquire that technical information from the speaker designer? Do most speaker designers even measure their own speakers' phase angle at different frequencies?

I get phasemeasurments automatically added when i design ls.
I hardly look at the graph , not important for designing imo.
Its more of a end result by productgraph.
 

Pb Blimp

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I get phasemeasurments automatically added when i design ls.
I hardly look at the graph , not important for designing imo.
Its more of a end result by productgraph.

Agreed. I would not compromise SQ for efficiency in a design but I would certainly match the amplification with an understanding of both impedance and angle across FR.
 
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andromedaaudio

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Efficiency is determined mostly by the type of units that are used, further by way they are connected/ type of x over.
High efficiency and impedance are design goals , phasebehavior not.
I find it important that a speaker is easy to drive to give IT a jump factor and to widen the Amplifier choice.
I currently listen to a 10 watt class A SS poweramp , and i miss nothing
 

andromedaaudio

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PS i could design higher efficiency speakers of the same size, using Thiel accuton for example, but i prefer different softer tonecolour for the mids.
100 db eff for a cone design sure is possible.
10 watt SET aint 10 watt SS Though with set you lose bigwoofergrip.
Electronic / house music and dynamic Movies make that easily obvious.
With a cost no object design suited for a bigger room i. Could go 100 db eff .even with papermids That would blow the socks of the Wilson Wamm easy lol.
It would be a 2 towerdesign completely passive, dont wanna miss out on using big tubes on the basstowers.
You only need one. Amp in my designs though lol , i like to keep it affordable/ simple, that one would probably be even easier to drive then the XPE design


PS i could also design a Thiel accuton 80 db speaker , the brand alone doesnt mean ****
 
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morricab

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I disagree with the term requires. You may want to argue the subtlety is captured more easily but IMO it is simply not true less efficient speakers can't accomplish subtlety. Pointing to an exception does not prove the rule. I still believe amplifier speaker matching is the key to what we are discussing here more than the speakers inherent topology.

There are some insensitive drivers (thin electrotstatic drivers like in the STAX ELSF81) that can achieve the same subtlety but not heavy conventional drivers, IMO.
 

Loheswaran

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Not sure if I am adding much here, but the inefficient speakers tend to be designed with powerful amps with superb load handling. The advantage is of course a flatter more accurate response over the whole frequency spectrum.

Efficient drivers - ie horns tend to be curtailed at frequency extremes, so they deliver exceptionally in a frequency 'sweet spot' that range also tends to be he range in which humans tend to be most sensitive. It could be that this is an added factor for the appeal of such designs.

Many better ears out there than mine are open minded to concede that you can't be all things to all men, and may explain why people have a second system.

I had heard various MAgicos and thought them to be dull and lifeless (for some reason always heard at the end of DArtzeels). That was until I heard some at the end of some Constellation Monos and then they were simply staggering - subtle, alive, thrilling, and just so powerful.
 

PeterA

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Not sure if I am adding much here, but the inefficient speakers tend to be designed with powerful amps with superb load handling. The advantage is of course a flatter more accurate response over the whole frequency spectrum.

Efficient drivers - ie horns tend to be curtailed at frequency extremes, so they deliver exceptionally in a frequency 'sweet spot' that range also tends to be he range in which humans tend to be most sensitive. It could be that this is an added factor for the appeal of such designs.

Many better ears out there than mine are open minded to concede that you can't be all things to all men, and may explain why people have a second system.

I had heard various MAgicos and thought them to be dull and lifeless (for some reason always heard at the end of DArtzeels). That was until I heard some at the end of some Constellation Monos and then they were simply staggering - subtle, alive, thrilling, and just so powerful.

Interesting post. I did not know those characteristics of drivers with different efficiencies. Yes, I have also heard Magico speakers sound completely different and highly dependent upon the amplification. Some models are so revealing, and I would add low in distortion, that one is very much hearing the attributes of the electronics just upstream. Which Magico model did you hear with the Darts and Constellation?
 

Loheswaran

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The Magico was either the Q5 or Q7 it was in the absolute sounds room at the high end show in Windsor at the end of a Saturday, and they were just a magnificent combination - it's rare to hear power, grip, and subtlety together.

I am sure I will be lambasted regarding the comment relating to frequency range, but it is the reason why multi driver units require crossovers.

I learnt a lot building some speakers - they were lousy and taught me that too many DIYers enjoy the journey so much that they forget the destination. Mine was a 'Road to hell' I bought superb drive units and built a heavy box, but it did not come together. That said I read a lot of good books on speaker design which also covered horns. what I found was by and large horns have a very uneven frequency response and it may contribute to the magic sound in the mid-band. That said in the same way I love a Lotus Elise I also like a Rolls Royce - equally valid depending on what you want.

I am afraid that I am now limited to small speakers - doesn't matter if they are efficient or not LOL
 

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