WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

bonzo75 · Mar 13, 2018

microstrip said:
Can I ask exactly what you are addressing? You do not quote any previous post, your answer is diffuse.

It was a reply to Al's previous post

Al M. · Mar 13, 2018

jeffrey_t said:
The common complaint of the non-horn systems is that they are not dynamic and "boring." .

Indeed, many non-horn systems are not dynamic and "boring". Doesn't mean all of them.

ddk · Mar 13, 2018

bach_king said:
That’s a very good analogy. With low efficiency speakers much of the amplifiers power is wasted fighting the natural resistance in the speaker or more accurately in the crossover. It is much more difficult to accurately represent the dynamics present in recording using LE speakers and it requires more power for the peaks which may not be present. However there is no doubt in my mind that many LE systems can sound superb. For example modern Quad Electrostatics. The truth I suspect is that there are always exceptions to the rule which is one of the eternal fascinations of the hobby.

David ???

Sorry David but why are you swimming sideways?

david

Folsom · Mar 13, 2018

microstrip said:
A few notes and points of disagreement.

1. The classic misconception of sensitivity in this subject, mixing the concepts of sensitivity and efficiency. As long as the electronics are linear and noise free, the outcome does not change with efficiency. A low efficiency speaker can be very sensitive.

2. Just feelings, nothing related with physics. Measurements show that most of these less sensitive systems - even at 86 db/W are extremely linear and do not compress at any levels. Surely I am not addressing poorly designed speakers.

3. Large area electrostatic have high resistance to motion due to their acoustic resistance. Peter Walker wrote about it - they typically drive a few cube meters of air with a mass of the order of kilograms. Different foil thickness or brands have different mechanical parameters that change resonances and the characteristic electrostatic sound. Nothing magic here.

5. What is the problem of needing power if high quality power is available?

Just a note - our "live feel" is an extremely subjective concept, mostly due to our sound reproduction preferences, as well of that of those who share them. For any similar general rule as those you outlined we can find several exceptions.

Yes.

The difference between a high efficiency and low efficiency speaker driver can be as little as the size of the magnet.

Countless drivers also hit max excursion before they get near thermal compression, as another way to say what you're saying.

But even while all of this can be true, even frequently, it doesn't change that there are often a lot of differences in sound for other reasons. For example driver cone size. There are a lot of reasons they sound different, but as you point out, it's not always about a pure power vs weight vs efficiency.

Al M. · Mar 13, 2018

bonzo75 said:
You haven't heard the right horns or panels, while we have heard many many Magicos.

I have heard very dynamic panels, Ack's modified ones. I also have heard several instances where a Magico speaker does not sound particularly dynamic. System context is everything, and often the culprit is not the speaker. Also, not all Magico speakers are the same.

Al M. · Mar 13, 2018

KeithR said:
funny, I find the Voltis very colored.

Have you heard the Volti Rival?

bonzo75 · Mar 13, 2018

Al M. said:
I have heard very dynamic panels, Ack's modified ones. I also have heard several instances where a Magico speaker does not sound particularly dynamic. System context is everything, and often the culprit is not the speaker. Also, not all Magico speakers are the same.

That's one stat system.

I have heard S3, Q5, S5, mk2, mk1, the old M5, M3s, with loads of amps in non show conditions, and the Magico mini with spectral, airtight, tenor 75 OTL.

You need to do your research on panels, horns, and analog

KeithR · Mar 13, 2018

Al M. said:
Have you heard the Volti Rival?

Yes, last year at LAAS and the Vittoras multiple times before that. I find they sound like old school, euphonic horns with oversized images.

stereophile reviewer loved them, but the measurements definitely raised some questions:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/volti-audio-rival-loudspeaker-measurements

microstrip · Mar 13, 2018

bonzo75 said:
(...) I have heard S3, Q5, S5, mk2, mk1, the old M5, M3s, with loads of amps in non show conditions, and the Magico mini with spectral, airtight, tenor 75 OTL. (...)

And none of those systems could properly handle micro-dynamics?

the sound of Tao · Mar 13, 2018

caesar said:
Hi Tao,
Yes, I have the original Kraft 400s, per the Stereophile review. And yes, they are as good as the review: https://www.stereophile.com/content/symphonic-line-kraft-400-monoblock-power-amplifier

It is the only amp I have encountered that obliterates the line between tubes and SS. I know this will hurt someone people's feelings, but it makes Pass amps sound like an amateur guitarist compared to Jimmy Hendrix.

The newer / smaller models are quite amazing also, but they are different. They use a different transistor for a more modern, more transparent sound. Used as mono-blocks, or in bi-amp situations, they are quite phenomenal also.

One common pairing for the Krafts is MBL, and one of the systems I run them on is MBL, and it's absolutely knock-out fantastic. The amps have great dynamics and also allow one to use a CAT or Jadis preamp for that tube tone & texture we discussing. They can do the big stuff and fireworks, but also small stuff with great delicacy. They are also great on Magicos, as well as any speaker that presents a tough load such as an Apogee, as Bonzo mentions above.

I have a several high end systems + several headphone systems for different experiences. I enjoy them all. I am not after a single truth - I like to experiment and have fun in this hobby, and there is something about high-efficiency speakers and horns that is so incredibly emotionally engaging, while forgetting that the audiophile vocabulary exists.

Thanks Caesar,
That’s great, your amps sound fantastic and great you have so much choice with gear. Which MBL speaker, I have heard a few of them and they have quite a range of characteristics. Sounds like you love the music through them still so I figure emotional engagement is part of that so the question remains what sensitivity do they have and do you think it is the speaker or is another part of your system that is responsible.

Wow, are you saying you are running both Jadis and Cat preamps with your SL amps? Time for some pics as it must look something spesh as a system! Would love to see your room. I would think a valve preamp with the SL monos would possibly bring the emotional engagement to your system? Would be great to see a pic of your favourite gear at home and perhaps more on the music you play mostly as it would let us know much better where you are coming from in so many of the threads you initiate.

bonzo75 · Mar 13, 2018

microstrip said:
And none of those systems could properly handle micro-dynamics?

Sorry not compared to the right panels or horns. Not close. And that's not much Magico. It's cones. You have experience with panels so you can have your opinion. You should check out some good horns

bonzo75 · Mar 13, 2018

the sound of Tao said:
Thanks Caesar,
That’s great, your amps sound fantastic and great you have so much choice with gear. Which MBL speaker, I have heard a few of them and they have quite a range of characteristics. Sounds like you love the music through them still so I figure emotional engagement is part of that so the question remains what sensitivity do they have and do you think it is the speaker or is another part of your system that is responsible.

Wow, are you saying you are running both Jadis and Cat preamps with your SL amps? Time for some pics as it must look something spesh as a system! Would love to see your room. I would think a valve preamp with the SL monos would possibly bring the emotional engagement to your system? Would be great to see a pic of your favourite gear at home and perhaps more on the music you play mostly as it would let us know much better where you are coming from in so many of the threads you initiate.

From what I understand they are voiced with each other and Kevin of CAT used to recommend this amp to those who had to have an SS amp and couldn't do his valve amp

morricab · Mar 13, 2018

KeithR said:
funny, I find the Voltis very colored.

Never heard them but the Klipsch La Scallas I had in college were pretty colored but they could sure rock the house for parties!!!

morricab · Mar 13, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Sorry not compared to the right panels or horns. Not close. And that's not much Magico. It's cones. You have experience with panels so you can have your opinion. You should check out some good horns

On this we can definitely agree

Al M. · Mar 13, 2018

KeithR said:
Yes, last year at LAAS and the Vittoras multiple times before that. I find they sound like old school, euphonic horns with oversized images.

stereophile reviewer loved them, but the measurements definitely raised some questions:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/volti-audio-rival-loudspeaker-measurements

Interesting. I was struck not only by the tone of the Volti Rivals but also by the realistic, focused size of the images (and given that I have monitors I am an image freak, not easy to satisfy). You must not have heard them optimally set-up.

microstrip · Mar 13, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Sorry not compared to the right panels or horns. Not close. And that's not much Magico. It's cones. You have experience with panels so you can have your opinion. You should check out some good horns

I have had many panels, and still own a few , and they do not handle micro dynamics better than most cones I have now. They are simply different. For example, voice micro dynamics are significantly better with the XLF's than all else I have listened to. I have listened several times to Avantgarde, even the Trios, and although having impressive dynamics and stage, they were not fabulous in micro dynamics - although it was demo/show conditions, not in my system.

I could return any time to SoundLab or Quad. I am detached from stereotypes or fan clubs, but I know what I will miss if giving up the XLF. Particularly with top digital modern recordings!

bonzo75 · Mar 13, 2018

Stream something into a spectral 10+80 into the soundlabs. The old spectral. Fantastic. Picked this up from Gian's friend, who has been the distributor of spectral and boulder for decades there. Same guy who had the tenor

morricab · Mar 15, 2018

microstrip said:
I have had many panels, and still own a few , and they do not handle micro dynamics better than most cones I have now. They are simply different. For example, voice micro dynamics are significantly better with the XLF's than all else I have listened to. I have listened several times to Avantgarde, even the Trios, and although having impressive dynamics and stage, they were not fabulous in micro dynamics - although it was demo/show conditions, not in my system.

I could return any time to SoundLab or Quad. I am detached from stereotypes or fan clubs, but I know what I will miss if giving up the XLF. Particularly with top digital modern recordings!

Well, mine sure did and I have heard all the big Wilsons with all kinds of amps. Maybe you are listening quite loud? I noticed that the real advantage of my stats over conventional speakers was with listening levels that average < 80db...the stuff that usually drops out on wide dynamic range recordings would go much quieter before dropping out. Complex multi-way speakers, even those of nominally high sensitivity, cannot do this as well, IME. Even a relatively simple (2-3 way ) horn will not better a good stat for this kind of low level preservation. Only some high sensitivity single drivers do as well but those have their own issues...like lack of bass...and treble roughness.

At a higher volume where the drivers are good and energized then the big hig eff. multi-ways might compete with that kind of low level resolution but not at moderate-low volume...again IME.

microstrip · Mar 15, 2018

morricab said:
Well, mine sure did and I have heard all the big Wilsons with all kinds of amps. Maybe you are listening quite loud? I noticed that the real advantage of my stats over conventional speakers was with listening levels that average < 80db...the stuff that usually drops out on wide dynamic range recordings would go much quieter before dropping out. Complex multi-way speakers, even those of nominally high sensitivity, cannot do this as well, IME. Even a relatively simple (2-3 way ) horn will not better a good stat for this kind of low level preservation. Only some high sensitivity single drivers do as well but those have their own issues...like lack of bass...and treble roughness.

At a higher volume where the drivers are good and energized then the big hig eff. multi-ways might compete with that kind of low level resolution but not at moderate-low volume...again IME.

It is known that different types of speakers can sound different at low levels due to their different radiation patterns, that change significantly the ratio of direct to reflected sound. And sorry, for me listening levels that average at 80 dB are reasonably loud. What peak levels in unweighted dB do you measure at your listening position when you "average at 80dB"?

As well as our opinions, our experiences are strongly biased - why wasting our time listening to sound types that do not please our preference?

Bob Heinatz · Apr 14, 2018

Enjoyed reading thur this thread. I think we all tend to defend which path we have chosen. I have chosen the single driver path driven with 7 tube watts. To my ears I have a very engaging system that gives me a live sound and it is alive at low to moderate listening levels.

WHY are high-efficiency speakers are better at conveying emotion of music vs. audiophile vocabulary?

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