FR not correct for very low level listening - my fix for this 'problem'

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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I have a compact system using Zingali Client Evo 1.2 speakers. They have a 12inch horn and a 12 inch bass speaker. My listening position is very near field, in fact almost like an oversized headphone setup. It all works fine and I am very happy with them, though my previous Zingali Overtures were great as well. I was worried about the size and near field of the bigger speakers before they were delivered, plus I bought them based based on the superb little Overture 2 model which I enjoyed for 6 years.

Anyway, after 18 months of running the 1.2s, I came to realise on very low level listing (in the evening for example) I am hearing more information from the horns than the 12 inch bass units. It is I imagine because the woofers have a lot of mass and are barely getting going. Whereas the compression drivers have little mass and respond to tiny amount of current. I was ok about that, but lately realised I was using then quite a lot at low levels, so had a think how to 'fix' this.

My solution
I use a Mac Mini and Audirvana+ feeding my DAC via Ethernet, and in Aurdirvana+ I have audio unit plugins. I bought a great EQ plugin called DMG Audio Equalibrium. Tyll at Inner Fidelity swears by this EQ, and I agree with him. I already used it when listing via my LCD4 headphones with a 6kHz tweak. So I started playing with an EQ for the lower level setting on my Zingalis and managed to create a perfectly balanced FR. Basically I was aiming to get the exact same FR I was hearing when playing the same speakers at a louder / normal level, and I have managed to achieve it. Once I set it up, it only takes a second to select the new EQ for low level listening.

I hope this idea helps others achieve the same. I have noticed a similar treble imbalance in other speakers I have owned which were not horns. Possibly the tweater in conventional speakers is also faster at lower levels as it carries less mass than a big woofer. In my previous systems I had no way to alter the FR. The other cool thing with the DMG Audio EQ is I have balance adjustment as well, as my right ear is about 5% down to my left.

BTW I highly recommend Jack Lawson at The Music Room in Glasgow. They also love Zingalis and are the UK dealer. They sound great with SET amps as are 98dB efficient, but I am using them off a Plinius SA-103 150 watt Class A SS power amplifier, and they also match very well. Needless to say I have enough volume and dynamics to blow my socks off as my room is not so huge either. I like to close the room off and play loud just to get it to pressurise, great fun. I run a 10 inch Velodyne which works great with them.

DMG.jpg stand1.jpg
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
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Switzerland
I have a compact system using Zingali Client Evo 1.2 speakers. They have a 12inch horn and a 12 inch bass speaker. My listening position is very near field, in fact almost like an oversized headphone setup. It all works fine and I am very happy with them, though my previous Zingali Overtures were great as well. I was worried about the size and near field of the bigger speakers before they were delivered, plus I bought them based based on the superb little Overture 2 model which I enjoyed for 6 years.

Anyway, after 18 months of running the 1.2s, I came to realise on very low level listing (in the evening for example) I am hearing more information from the horns than the 12 inch bass units. It is I imagine because the woofers have a lot of mass and are barely getting going. Whereas the compression drivers have little mass and respond to tiny amount of current. I was ok about that, but lately realised I was using then quite a lot at low levels, so had a think how to 'fix' this.

My solution
I use a Mac Mini and Audirvana+ feeding my DAC via Ethernet, and in Aurdirvana+ I have audio unit plugins. I bought a great EQ plugin called DMG Audio Equalibrium. Tyll at Inner Fidelity swears by this EQ, and I agree with him. I already used it when listing via my LCD4 headphones with a 6kHz tweak. So I started playing with an EQ for the lower level setting on my Zingalis and managed to create a perfectly balanced FR. Basically I was aiming to get the exact same FR I was hearing when playing the same speakers at a louder / normal level, and I have managed to achieve it. Once I set it up, it only takes a second to select the new EQ for low level listening.

I hope this idea helps others achieve the same. I have noticed a similar treble imbalance in other speakers I have owned which were not horns. Possibly the tweater in conventional speakers is also faster at lower levels as it carries less mass than a big woofer. In my previous systems I had no way to alter the FR. The other cool thing with the DMG Audio EQ is I have balance adjustment as well, as my right ear is about 5% down to my left.

BTW I highly recommend Jack Lawson at The Music Room in Glasgow. They also love Zingalis and are the UK dealer. They sound great with SET amps as are 98dB efficient, but I am using them off a Plinius SA-103 150 watt Class A SS power amplifier, and they also match very well. Needless to say I have enough volume and dynamics to blow my socks off as my room is not so huge either. I like to close the room off and play loud just to get it to pressurise, great fun. I run a 10 inch Velodyne which works great with them.

View attachment 39042 View attachment 39043

Have you tried a tube amp on the to see what it is like at low levels? It could be Zingali tunes the bass more for low damping factor amps and this could then thin things out due to being overdamped. This will impact low levels more severely.

Btw, got Kassandra yet?
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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Have you tried a tube amp on the to see what it is like at low levels? It could be Zingali tunes the bass more for low damping factor amps and this could then thin things out due to being overdamped. This will impact low levels more severely.

Btw, got Kassandra yet?

Hmm, possibly a bit of both? Having previously owned 300B SET MBs they did play nice at lower levels and had micro detail. It is the 'FIRST WATT' that is the most important subject, which I absolutely agree with. However, my Audio Note SETs were whooly in the bass at higher levels, IMO as the transformers in those Conquests were not up to the job, or there was not enough curret, or both of those things. TBH I would love to try (for example) the Aries Cerat Diana Power amp. I can imagine that problem would be solved right there, 25 watts of pure DHT power done right.

My Plinius is no slouch mind and has a very smooth signature for an SS amp. It has great control especially in the bass, needless to say I have tons of power on tap, don't actually need it all. I am more interested in that First Watt!

My Kassandra Ref II is made, and it in the factory ready to ship out. I would think it will go out this coming week, and Cyprus to Spain via UPS would be less than a week?

I am going to float up my own review of it on here, but after a few weeks of burn in. I have 'made space' for it on my really big marble desk. The iMac will need to be jacked up by 5cm to miss the front left side of the Kassandra, so an overlap of about 5cm. It will have it's own place, no shelf above it, only my 100cm Tiger Eye Ball sat on top.

Now how big is the Diana Ha Ha, I wish.... might be room on the floor where the Plinius sits though? Does this hobby ever end..... :rolleyes:
 

morricab

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2014
9,391
4,986
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Hmm, possibly a bit of both? Having previously owned 300B SET MBs they did play nice at lower levels and had micro detail. It is the 'FIRST WATT' that is the most important subject, which I absolutely agree with. However, my Audio Note SETs were whooly in the bass at higher levels, IMO as the transformers in those Conquests were not up to the job, or there was not enough curret, or both of those things. TBH I would love to try (for example) the Aries Cerat Diana Power amp. I can imagine that problem would be solved right there, 25 watts of pure DHT power done right.

My Plinius is no slouch mind and has a very smooth signature for an SS amp. It has great control especially in the bass, needless to say I have tons of power on tap, don't actually need it all. I am more interested in that First Watt!

My Kassandra Ref II is made, and it in the factory ready to ship out. I would think it will go out this coming week, and Cyprus to Spain via UPS would be less than a week?

I am going to float up my own review of it on here, but after a few weeks of burn in. I have 'made space' for it on my really big marble desk. The iMac will need to be jacked up by 5cm to miss the front left side of the Kassandra, so an overlap of about 5cm. It will have it's own place, no shelf above it, only my 100cm Tiger Eye Ball sat on top.

Now how big is the Diana Ha Ha, I wish.... might be room on the floor where the Plinius sits though? Does this hobby ever end..... :rolleyes:

Yes, the first watt is critical...particularly when you are cruising below that amount much of the time. However, if the speaker is highly damped then something like the Plinius, which has a high damping factor, will sound too damped...too controlled and will lose out when playing at low levels. I had the NAT Symibiosis SE, which was a Single ended hybrid with a single big transistor on the output. It was a really good amp with a vented box speaker (like Referene 3as) but on my horns it was overdamped and didn't allow hte music to breathe. A good back horn is extremely well damped and so it doesn't need any electrical damping from the amp. Your Zingali, while not horn bass, might still have been critically damped and therefore not require assistance from the amp for bass control.

The Conquests, particularly if you only had them with the stock transformers (not Silver Signature) , are undersized and saturate rather easily. The top Double C cores should be better but still maybe borderline for dynamic demands. The output trannies on Diana are 18Kg each...way overrated for the power output.

As to the size...quite a bit larger...nearly 250lbs and with significantly larger footprint than the Plinius you have. Probably the most weight per watt out there...LOL! Glad to hear about your Kassandra...I agree you should really get some hours on it before you post...better to be sure of what you hear beforehand.

You can PM me if you want to know more about Diana...
 

Rodney Gold

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Jan 29, 2014
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It's not your speakers , its your ears..google Fletcher Munson curve.
Eq is a perfect solution
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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Yes, the first watt is critical...particularly when you are cruising below that amount much of the time. However, if the speaker is highly damped then something like the Plinius, which has a high damping factor, will sound too damped...too controlled and will lose out when playing at low levels. I had the NAT Symibiosis SE, which was a Single ended hybrid with a single big transistor on the output. It was a really good amp with a vented box speaker (like Referene 3as) but on my horns it was overdamped and didn't allow hte music to breathe. A good back horn is extremely well damped and so it doesn't need any electrical damping from the amp. Your Zingali, while not horn bass, might still have been critically damped and therefore not require assistance from the amp for bass control.

The Conquests, particularly if you only had them with the stock transformers (not Silver Signature) , are undersized and saturate rather easily. The top Double C cores should be better but still maybe borderline for dynamic demands. The output trannies on Diana are 18Kg each...way overrated for the power output.

As to the size...quite a bit larger...nearly 250lbs and with significantly larger footprint than the Plinius you have. Probably the most weight per watt out there...LOL! Glad to hear about your Kassandra...I agree you should really get some hours on it before you post...better to be sure of what you hear beforehand.

You can PM me if you want to know more about Diana...

Interesting, thank you for that information. Yes I had the Conquest standard, and was not as thrilled by them to spend 7K on upgraded transformers. I did speak to another owner of the Conquest Silvers before I sold them, and he was not so happy either. I think those amps are ok on simple 2 way and 98dB efficient at least. But even then seem to run out of juice, the bass drivers never seemed controlled enough. The mids were ok, typical 300B strengths I guess. May work ok on the AN-Es but I never got excited about that speaker.... it always sounded strained at shows to me when playing at decent levels.

Yes, I will live with the Kassandra for 3 weeks I think, let it run in a bit. Is it best to leave it on 24/7 or switch it off every day. Those big caps need to charge I would imagine.:b
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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It's not your speakers , its your ears..google Fletcher Munson curve.
Eq is a perfect solution

Sadly, it is not just the ears. Some speakers (and electronics) are much better than others at low levels. Your brain compensation is already fully engaged...
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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Sadly, it is not just the ears. Some speakers (and electronics) are much better than others at low levels. Your brain compensation is already fully engaged...

I think it is mainly mass, the lightness of tweeters or horns integrating with bigger and slower cone speakers with high mass. This is at low level, and bear in mind I am sat only 1.7 meters from my speaker position while working. Crank it to 'day time' levels and it is fine.

Actually how a speaker handles levels of volume is an interesting subject in itself. And with a digital source more so IMO. I have heard quite a lot of 'hi-end' systems at shows and when played loud with complex and dynamic music don't sound so impressive IMO. Sorts out the men from the boys....

I do prefer the things horns can do, the effortless speed and texture, and the wide spread of the stereo image. I can only imagine how the Symphonia's sound. I am going to Munich Hi-End so can hear them then hopefully.:p
 

shakti

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May 9, 2015
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the frequency response of the client name evo is very special, as the speaker has a corresponding impedance curve as well. plus the needs of the big bass system.

If you run solid state or class d, the amp is capable to double the power, if impedance gets half.

Is this the case, the Zingali will get a thinner FR with less bass.

The Zingali is mainly designed for tube designs, where the power is flat over the impedance curve. this will flatten the FR from the Zingali as such.

Some SS amps , like the small Boulder monos do habe the same specification.

With my Air Tight 211 mono I had a nice FR, but in my room a little to less headroom.

Now I am using the CAT JL3, which increases the power over the impedance a little and has (for a tube amp) a huge damping factor of 108.

The JL3 has significantly improved the FR in the lower bass area.

I enjoy the combination on my Zingali client name evo 1.5 a lot.
 

Legolas

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Dec 27, 2015
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the frequency response of the client name evo is very special, as the speaker has a corresponding impedance curve as well. plus the needs of the big bass system.

If you run solid state or class d, the amp is capable to double the power, if impedance gets half.

Is this the case, the Zingali will get a thinner FR with less bass.

The Zingali is mainly designed for tube designs, where the power is flat over the impedance curve. this will flatten the FR from the Zingali as such.

Some SS amps , like the small Boulder monos do habe the same specification.

With my Air Tight 211 mono I had a nice FR, but in my room a little to less headroom.

Now I am using the CAT JL3, which increases the power over the impedance a little and has (for a tube amp) a huge damping factor of 108.

The JL3 has significantly improved the FR in the lower bass area.

I enjoy the combination on my Zingali client name evo 1.5 a lot.

Interesting, and I am glad you enjoy your 1.5s. Yes the Zingalis are a nice speaker for sure. I had the Overture II with my Audio Note SET Conquests 300B MBs. The Client Name Evo series are a different animal altogether. I actually have no problem with the FR at normal levels and they can play very loud as well without any sign of stress or shouting. I am unsure if your summary on damping is the cause. I can see tube amps with 'less damping' may affect things, but unsure if that is the case at very low level. I think my observation is more basic than that, really my near field listening combined with varied mass of the 2 driver systems. It is a physical challenge to get a big speaker to play a flat FR at low levels and near field IMO. I would imagine (for example) the big Wilson units being the same. Lets face it if you have a 6 foot high speaker it would be highly unusual to listen near field and at low levels in a normal environment.

I quite like what mini monitors (2 way designs) can do near field and at low levels. The Magico Q1 (not made now I believe) for example. Thought that particular speaker though very good was very expensive for it's inherent FR limitations.

On the other side of the coin, my Audio Note 300B SETs were better a low levels but ran out of control as the volume and power draw went up. Bass was sloppy and without detail. They were clearly not the best SETs out there IMO.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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I think it is mainly mass, the lightness of tweeters or horns integrating with bigger and slower cone speakers with high mass. This is at low level, and bear in mind I am sat only 1.7 meters from my speaker position while working. Crank it to 'day time' levels and it is fine.

Actually how a speaker handles levels of volume is an interesting subject in itself. And with a digital source more so IMO. I have heard quite a lot of 'hi-end' systems at shows and when played loud with complex and dynamic music don't sound so impressive IMO. Sorts out the men from the boys....

I do prefer the things horns can do, the effortless speed and texture, and the wide spread of the stereo image. I can only imagine how the Symphonia's sound. I am going to Munich Hi-End so can hear them then hopefully.:p

Well, it would be nice to meet you in Munich as I will be there too. What days are you planning on being there? Sadly, I don't think there will be a Symphonia at the show this year as Aries Cerat is not planning to have a room.

Given the high overall system sensitivity of your Zingalis, I doubt that the bass driver is all that heavy...heavy ones almost always have low sensitivity. I would agree with Shakti's assessment (as it is close to my own) that you are overdamping the speaker with the very high damping factor from the Plinius and this is causing a drop in bass that is going to be especially noticeable at lower levels...I have experienced just this same thing with my horns.

It is not clear to me why you think that near-field would make the problem worse...I would have thought if anything it would make the issue less severe.

I would not be in a rush though to dump the speakers and maybe you could borrow a good SET to test the hypothesis before changing the speakers to match the amp...I could see living with those Zingalis...I love that Omniray horn!!
 

Legolas

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Well, it would be nice to meet you in Munich as I will be there too. What days are you planning on being there? Sadly, I don't think there will be a Symphonia at the show this year as Aries Cerat is not planning to have a room.

Given the high overall system sensitivity of your Zingalis, I doubt that the bass driver is all that heavy...heavy ones almost always have low sensitivity. I would agree with Shakti's assessment (as it is close to my own) that you are overdamping the speaker with the very high damping factor from the Plinius and this is causing a drop in bass that is going to be especially noticeable at lower levels...I have experienced just this same thing with my horns.

It is not clear to me why you think that near-field would make the problem worse...I would have thought if anything it would make the issue less severe.

I would not be in a rush though to dump the speakers and maybe you could borrow a good SET to test the hypothesis before changing the speakers to match the amp...I could see living with those Zingalis...I love that Omniray horn!!

No, I don't intend selling my Zingalis. I bought them used for £8K and are great condition, about 3 years old when I got them. I am nit-picking on this subject. As soon as I play music at normal levels, the bass comes right up and the sound is very well balanced. If I play them loud the Plinius has great bass texture and control, very fast and keep up with the horn just fine.

Pity about Aries Cerat not having a room at Munich. I think Stavros is going though? Will ask him.
 

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