Interview with MSB @ Mono and Stereo

asiufy

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Hifi Boy

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Good read. I wonder whether their products are really worth that much, seeing as how I've never actually listened to an MSB product.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Good read. I wonder whether their products are really worth that much, seeing as how I've never actually listened to an MSB product.

yes, they are IMHO. but worth is a personal viewpoint. and i would say it's only relevant should you be considering other products at somewhat similar price points to particular MSB products.

if you are looking at $3k to $5k dacs, no dac will be worth $90k to you. it's just not relevant. but if you want a dac that challenges better turntables, arms, cartridges and phono stages, then a $90k dac now becomes relevant. and when start figuring out acquisition of media, it can end up even more cost effective relatively.

the MSB Select II does do just that. if 'that' is important.
 

Folsom

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Good read. I wonder whether their products are really worth that much, seeing as how I've never actually listened to an MSB product.

"worth" is an interesting word to use.

Are their products very good? YES. I've been impressed numerous times. Worth that much money? Can you get sound that's better for less? That's all subjective, very subjective. But I believe sales numbers will show that many people do feel they are worth it, and many reviews & mentioned praise them. It's pretty easy to find accolades, even some from me, searching the net.

MSB certainly has lofty goals and ambitions with how some of it is designed, and that costs a lot of money. You'd be surprised how much money they spend to make the gear - especially with the amount of custom stuff.
 

mcduman

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sensational sounding stuff, priced like cables. you know where to start the negotiations with the dealer
 

microstrip

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(...) if you are looking at $3k to $5k dacs, no dac will be worth $90k to you. it's just not relevant. but if you want a dac that challenges better turntables, arms, cartridges and phono stages, then a $90k dac now becomes relevant. and when start figuring out acquisition of media, it can end up even more cost effective relatively.

the MSB Select II does do just that. if 'that' is important.

IMHO "challenges" is not the best word, as it is mainly a question of preference. Curious that the MSB people explicitly tell something I wrote when adressing a specific DSD recording - detail and soundtage. https://www.alia-vox.com/en/catalogue/les-rutes-de-lesclavatge/ or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBKj_5nUXVwhttp:// . BTW, I am still waiting for a reference to a recording of equivalent sound quality and complexity carried and available in analog.

Quoting from http://www.monoandstereo.com/2018/02/an-exclusive-interview-with-msb.html

Question What is your take on the endless debate of analog vs digital?

Answer What sounds better? It always depends on personal preference. We’ve seen digital surpass analog for soundstage and detail, but it will remain subjective. A favorite vinyl will always sound best if it’s your favorite. If you care more about the perfect sound, digital can do one better for reproduction.
 
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Pb Blimp

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IMHO "challenges" is not the best word, as it is mainly a question of preference. Curious that the MSB people explicitly tell something I wrote when adressing a specific DSD recording - detail and soundtage. https://www.alia-vox.com/en/catalogue/les-rutes-de-lesclavatge/ or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBKj_5nUXVwhttp:// . BTW, I am still waiting for a reference to a recording of equivalent sound quality and complexity carried and available in analog.

Quoting from http://www.monoandstereo.com/2018/02/an-exclusive-interview-with-msb.html

Question What is your take on the endless debate of analog vs digital?

Answer What sounds better? It always depends on personal preference. We’ve seen digital surpass analog for soundstage and detail, but it will remain subjective. A favorite vinyl will always sound best if it’s your favorite. If you care more about the perfect sound, digital can do one better for reproduction.

Sadly, I had all of two hours with my new Reference a couple of weeks ago before I had one of my 501's fail. (I am now painfully waiting for its return from Switzerland.) However, in that two hours with a DAC (which was obviously not burned in) I was most floored by the sound stage. I have had many novice listeners in my room ask "where exactly are all the speakers in the front walls" when listening to my analog set up which images exceptionally well IMO. The Reference was on a level I have not experienced before from digital in this regard. Could I ultimately prefer it to my analog? I am skeptical, but can not wait to find out.
 

Al M.

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Sadly, I had all of two hours with my new Reference a couple of weeks ago before I had one of my 501's fail. (I am now painfully waiting for its return from Switzerland.) However, in that two hours with a DAC (which was obviously not burned in) I was most floored by the sound stage. I have had many novice listeners in my room ask "where exactly are all the speakers in the front walls" when listening to my analog set up which images exceptionally well IMO. The Reference was on a level I have not experienced before from digital in this regard. Could I ultimately prefer it to my analog? I am skeptical, but can not wait to find out.

"where exactly are all the speakers in the front walls": A friend of mine (non-audiophile) once asked me if my middle tube trap column on the front wall (now covered by an acoustic panel) was a speaker, because she was confused about where all that sound came from. She thought the singer was right in front of her. That was with my old Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC (standard, not Reference). So I don't think a soundstage with great imaging (and depth) should be so special, but then perhaps I am used to monitor/sub systems that image well easily. With large speakers it may be different; I even have heard a digital AES/EBU cable make a profound difference in such a system with regard to size and focus of center image (a solo violin).

Sorry to hear about your 501 mishap. Being fed up with amp failures (which I hope I will not have with my new Octave amp, but you never know) I have now bought a Schiit Vidar as a second amp to still being able to make some music in case. Amazing little (and heavy ;)) thing for $ 700. Still musically very enjoyable, and quite impressive, even though of course no match for my main amp.
 

Pb Blimp

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"where exactly are all the speakers in the front walls": A friend of mine (non-audiophile) once asked me if my middle tube trap column on the front wall (now covered by an acoustic panel) was a speaker, because she was confused about where all that sound came from. She thought the singer was right in front of her. That was with my old Berkeley Alpha 2 DAC (standard, not Reference). So I don't think a soundstage with great imaging (and depth) should be so special, but then perhaps I am used to monitor/sub systems that image well easily. With large speakers it may be different; I even have heard a digital AES/EBU cable make a profound difference in such a system with regard to size and focus of center image (a solo violin).

Sorry to hear about your 501 mishap. Being fed up with amp failures (which I hope I will not have with my new Octave amp, but you never know) I have now bought a Schiit Vidar as a second amp to still being able to make some music in case. Amazing little (and heavy ;)) thing for $ 700. Still musically very enjoyable, and quite impressive, even though of course no match for my main amp.

You are correct Al, I didn't mean so much to imply this "condition" was something unique as much as I was trying to imply the degree of the "condition" was somewhat unique in my experience. Ya its stinks not having my other amp. A spare is a great idea......
 

Al M.

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Hifi Boy

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If nothing else, I commend turn for the modular design. Whether I'll ever get to hear their products is another thing. Also, I think it would be beneficial for them too outsource the design to some other company.

I believe that when you're paying that much for your stuff, top notch design should be included as well, something like Wilson Audio offers.
 

Folsom

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Modular sounds good in theory, but has a high risk factor for being a limiting circumstance because of space. I hope to see them be able to continually use it, we'll see how good they predicted the feature.

Do you really think they don't have good design? I have not thought that. Could they look better? I guess it depends on whom you ask.
 

Mike Lavigne

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If nothing else, I commend turn for the modular design. Whether I'll ever get to hear their products is another thing. Also, I think it would be beneficial for them too outsource the design to some other company.

I believe that when you're paying that much for your stuff, top notch design should be included as well, something like Wilson Audio offers.

and which part of Wilson Audio is the industrial design that you are saying is one to admire? I don't see it at all. Magico? yes. Sonus Fabre? certainly.

i'm not really saying Wilson speakers are ugly, but at best they are functional and very well finished. top flight materials as far as I can see. elegant? no. powerful and ominous? maybe. art they are most definitely not.....by any stretch of the imagination. only that pointing to MSB as wanting, and then holding up Wilson as the target, is messed up.

I would agree that the previous generations of MSB looked lowfi to me, at best midfi. but the current MSB Select II and Reference Dacs are pretty nice industrial design, and their 'milled from solid billet' build quality exceeds all the competition.
 

Hifi Boy

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and which part of Wilson Audio is the industrial design that you are saying is one to admire? I don't see it at all. Magico? yes. Sonus Fabre? certainly.

i'm not really saying Wilson speakers are ugly, but at best they are functional and very well finished. top flight materials as far as I can see. elegant? no. powerful and ominous? maybe. art they are most definitely not.....by any stretch of the imagination. only that pointing to MSB as wanting, and then holding up Wilson as the target, is messed up.

I would agree that the previous generations of MSB looked lowfi to me, at best midfi. but the current MSB Select II and Reference Dacs are pretty nice industrial design, and their 'milled from solid billet' build quality exceeds all the competition.
Yes, it's actually finish that I'm talking about in this context. I'm not talking about the shape, because that's more subjective. If you don't think I should have used Wilson as an example, take Dan D'Agostino. Very nice products as well.

Furthermore, let's take one step into the lower priced territory. A Japanese company called Airtight, nice sounding stuff, fit and finish to match.

https://goo.gl/images/H8jnNY

So why can't we have this level of visual design sophistication in $100K products, when we can have it in way lower priced products? In the worst case scenario, they could have hired Airtight to do the design for them and maybe spend 5% of their revenue on that.

This is not unheard of, Samsung makes iPhone displays for Apple. Also, have you seen Steinway-Lyngdorf products? Nothing wrong with that mutual exchange of ideas for mutual profit.
 

Folsom

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I think that is subjective. MSB seems to have a very nice fit and finish from what I've seen.
 

Hifi Boy

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Modular sounds good in theory, but has a high risk factor for being a limiting circumstance because of space. I hope to see them be able to continually use it, we'll see how good they predicted the feature.

Do you really think they don't have good design? I have not thought that. Could they look better? I guess it depends on whom you ask.
Absolutely, it could be a potential downfall for them, but I've seen other companies started applying this approach more and more. Aqua Audio and their Formula DAC is also user upgradable.

As for the design, its nice and simple, don't get me wrong. But I believe that a lot of people who spend this kind of money want something more. Incorporating AirTight design into your Victorian styled living room is going to be much easier than with MSB products.

I think that's just common sense. Highly visually oriented people will want that as well. They want a product that sound good and goes well with the rest of the furniture. I call that concept "Design for Life". It's about customizing your whole experience not just one part of it in a compartmentalized fashion, but rather taking a holistic approach.

Just look at it this way, would want to live in a house where every wall was painted differently? They might still be nice, but taken together don't match all that well.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Yes, it's actually finish that I'm talking about in this context. I'm not talking about the shape, because that's more subjective. If you don't think I should have used Wilson as an example, take Dan D'Agostino. Very nice products as well.

Furthermore, let's take one step into the lower priced territory. A Japanese company called Airtight, nice sounding stuff, fit and finish to match.

https://goo.gl/images/H8jnNY

So why can't we have this level of visual design sophistication in $100K products, when we can have it in way lower priced products? In the worst case scenario, they could have hired Airtight to do the design for them and maybe spend 5% of their revenue on that.

This is not unheard of, Samsung makes iPhone displays for Apple. Also, have you seen Steinway-Lyngdorf products? Nothing wrong with that mutual exchange of ideas for mutual profit.

have you actually seen an MSB Select II in person? touched it? picked it up?

there is nothing finished like it. period. it is rounded and anodized and does not photograph particularly well. but it really 'pops' visually in person. you want to touch it. and once you hear it you want to own it. it walks it's talk.

obviously I have the three box MSB Select II here in person, with the top of line darTZeel and Lamm gear, Tripoint Elite and Troy Sig, and Studer A-820 too, and it holds it's own in that rarified air.

I guess we simply have different tastes.

Airtight? it's folded sheet steel boxes with pretty grey paint, but nothing to write home about. I do like the look of Airtight; and it photographs well. but build quality nothing even remotely on the level of any of the gear sitting in my room. but taste is personal.

and really; nothing touches the Mark Levinson gear from the late 90's I use to own in terms of elegance. No.33 mono blocks are still the ne plus ultra all time hifi industrial design champs. but it's just 'meh' these days in performance. and Airtight is quite colored in today's vernacular of performance. it's not really competitive with better choices (other than the cartridges). so why do we buy stuff? what are our priorities? maybe it's all WAF and having a cohesive look. just not how I look at things.
 

Hifi Boy

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have you actually seen an MSB Select II in person? touched it? picked it up?

there is nothing finished like it. period. it is rounded and anodized and does not photograph particularly well. but it really 'pops' visually in person. you want to touch it. and once you hear it you want to own it. it walks it's talk.

obviously I have the three box MSB Select II here in person, with the top of line darTZeel and Lamm gear, Tripoint Elite and Troy Sig, and Studer A-820 too, and it holds it's own in that rarified air.

I guess we simply have different tastes.

Airtight? it's folded sheet steel boxes with pretty grey paint, but nothing to write home about. I do like the look of Airtight; and it photographs well. but build quality nothing even remotely on the level of any of the gear sitting in my room. but taste is personal.

and really; nothing touches the Mark Levinson gear from the late 90's I use to own in terms of elegance. No.33 mono blocks are still the ne plus ultra all time hifi industrial design champs. but it's just 'meh' these days in performance. and Airtight is quite colored in today's vernacular of performance. it's not really competitive with better choices (other than the cartridges). so why do we buy stuff? what are our priorities? maybe it's all WAF and having a cohesive look. just not how I look at things.
I've only seen the newest all white body once at a show but not heard how they sound. Like I said, taste is subjective, but you will have a much easier time incorporating something like AT into a neo-Victorian or contemporary Italian living room, than the white boxes offered by MSB.

I'm not saying that MSB is not high build quality, it might vey well be, you seem to vouch for them, so I'll take your word for it. But there is a difference between simply wanting the best audiophile experience and wanting to have personal living space where every detail is custom tailored to your taste.
 

Folsom

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I admit the MSB's flagship is so large that it makes it challenging. But if you have $90k for a DAC, you can probably accommodate. Does it fit the decor? Well not sure what to tell you. It seems like most people don't use the living room if they are spending that much on a stereo. So myself would be a minority whom isn't interested in the look, so much so I may not purchase for that reason.
 

Hifi Boy

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Don't worry, this is primarily an audiophile forum where sound comes first. The thing is, when I personally enjoy something, I just want it to go well with other things I enjoy as well.

So yes, while being an audiophile, that does not preclude me from having a profound appreciation for interior design. So since that is the case, it's obvious to see how I would like my equipment to fit in, if you get what I'm saying.
 

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