ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

LL21 · Feb 28, 2018

ddk said:
No, just similar or close topology for the sub amp but definitely it's best to use the exact same amplification if we're talking about bi-amping.

david

That makes sense. Thanks again.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 28, 2018

with all this talk about how tubes on top and solid state on the bottom don't mix properly, jazdoc's comments, as both a confirmed tube guy, and person very familiar with my system might help. he thinks the bass is better now than before with the big darts. and he likely listens to more live music here than anyone too.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Lamm-ML3-and-darTZeel-458&p=497023#post497023

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Lamm-ML3-and-darTZeel-458&p=497085#post497085

I'm sure your guesses as to how things integrate have more validity than jazdoc's actual experiences.

so many agendas here it makes me ill. I'm just trying to explain what I'm hearing. then the spin doctors get going. so much turf to defend. :-(

KeithR · Feb 28, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Keith, I know I’m speaking to a Zu enthusiast (despite you ditching LOL the brand).
They’re soon to release their assault on the high end, incl carbon fibre impregnated birch cabinet, similar carbon fibre impregnation of paper cones of the FRDs, both of these approaches for the purpose of maxxing stiffness while minimising weight, 4x 12” subs per spkr.
TOTL Radian supertweeters. All drivers incl subs high efficiency, the FRDs in excess of 101dB, the subs just short of 100. Two subs per spkr tuned for impact/snap, two for warmth/bloom. High quality on board subs amps replacing current models Hypex, w facility to bypass w external amp of user’s choice, Duelund caps to high- and low-pass filters, Lundahls transformers to sub amps. Approx 60”x18”x20”.
If this doesn’t add up to Zu breaking into a true high end sound, I’m not sure what more they need to do.
(And yes, I do know it’s the sound that will make it high end or not, not a list of design parameters).

No offense, Marc - but this is MikeL's thread on amps. Why don't you start another thread for your system questions?

Al M. · Feb 28, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
with all this talk about how tubes on top and solid state on the bottom don't mix properly, jazdoc's comments, as both a confirmed tube guy, and person very familiar with my system might help. he thinks the bass is better now than before with the big darts.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Lamm-ML3-and-darTZeel-458&p=497023#post497023

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Lamm-ML3-and-darTZeel-458&p=497085#post497085

I'm sure your guesses as to how things integrate have more validity than jazdoc's actual experiences.

so many agendas here it makes me ill. I'm just trying to explain what I'm hearing. then the spin doctors get going. so much turf to defend. :-(

Indeed. I have pentode class A/B tube amps (both pentode and A/B a no-no for dogmatic purists anyway), brand Octave, and JL Audio Fathom subs, SS class D amplification. Works beautifully together. So no, I don't buy the bad-mix idea either.

Ron Resnick · Feb 28, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
. . .
so many agendas here it makes me ill. I'm just trying to explain what I'm hearing. then the spin doctors get going.

+1

I love these endless discussions, but I have to say I, too, am getting ill from all of the spin and theorizing on this particular thread.

Y'all know I have a tendency to speculate theoretically and to triangulate logically using my and others' data points. But we do not have to theorize here.

Mike is posting extensive, actual audition reports from his finely tuned system with which he is intimately familiar. These reports are vastly more persuasive and probative powerful evidence and proof of Mike's impressions than all of this theoretical spinning by people not in Mike's room.

spiritofmusic · Feb 28, 2018

Keith, you’re the one who asked why there aren’t any high end high efficiency spkrs. My post was my response to you that soon there will be one.

BruceD · Feb 28, 2018

David K's comment on the ceramic driver issue begs the question it may've been prudent for him to confer with Mike BEFORE M purchased the Lamms-no?

and stating the facts as he knew them relating to a possible "mismatch".

I trial before committing may have saved the Angst and conjecture.

BruceD

KeithR · Feb 28, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Keith, you’re the one who asked why there aren’t any high end high efficiency spkrs. My post was my response to you that soon there will be one.

and hence was deleted. i took my own advice before getting to you

jtinn · Feb 28, 2018

ddk said:
For whatever reason people are coming to a lot false conclusions about Mike's Yin & Yang and at the risk of Chumming and restarting the frenzy a 96db figure doesn't say anything about a speaker and any assumption based solely on that number is wrong! I have a lot of experience with Accuton drivers and while they can sound nice and pretty with tubes and some low wattage they need current to come to life. Those 11" ceramic woofer's current demands aren't far off ribbon panels and ribbon tweeters of that size also need juice to sparkle. You can't compare the MM7 to Steve's Wilson's which are true high sensitivity design and lose little or nothing when paired with high end SETs like the ML3s. This isn't a case of Lamm's running out of steam with a high sensitivity speaker, on the EA you'll even find a 300w tube amp lacking compared to an equivalent high current SS amplifier, one has to make choices here. There's another fly in the ointment which I'm not sure how aware of Mike is right now. He's fine tuned the system with the Darts for years and matched the subs to his amps, it will be very difficult to integrate the bass of a plate amp with a SET's low end. Personally I found it impossible to blend these too technologies and have a fully coherent integrated sonic fabric.

david

For whatever reason you are coming to a lot of false conclusions about the Evolution Acoustics speakers. Do you have any factual data to back up anything that you were saying at all? As the owner of Evolution Acoustics all I can say Is you were incorrect on virtually everything you said.

ALF · Feb 28, 2018

jtinn said:
For whatever reason you are coming to a lot of false conclusions about the Evolution Acoustics speakers. Do you have any factual data to back up anything that you were saying at all? As the owner of Evolution Acoustics all I can say Is you were incorrect on virtually everything you said.

As our Bavarian friend Thomas is fond to say, “Coke, chips...”

Cheers!
ALF

Mike Lavigne · Feb 28, 2018

BruceD said:
David K's comment on the ceramic driver issue begs the question it may've been prudent for him to confer with Mike BEFORE M purchased the Lamms-no?

and stating the facts as he knew them relating to a possible "mismatch".

I trial before committing may have saved the Angst and conjecture.

BruceD

David K. having a any old random opinion, and that musing being objectively true, are two separate concepts. he is just a guy with a viewpoint, and turf to defend.

some how we are supposed to just accept David's thoughts as correct? he has his biases and fallibilities like anyone. lots of very smart guys here have opinions. and many of them disagree with each other. and the designers of our products are smart guys too, and lot's of eye rolls happen when they read some of this stuff.

and.....I did not consult David K. prior to buying the ML3's. he found out when I posted the original post on this thread.

ddk · Feb 28, 2018

jtinn said:
For whatever reason you are coming to a lot of false conclusions about the Evolution Acoustics speakers. Do you have any factual data to back up anything that you were saying at all? As the owner of Evolution Acoustics all I can say Is you were incorrect on virtually everything you said.

What am I wrong about Jonathan, the subs aren't active with class D amps? Or Mike didn't spend a lot of time fine tuning the subs to the Darts, his accounts of that are somewhere on the forum. Over the last 20 years I handled enough speakers with Accuton drivers to know their nature, it isn't a knock on the EA one way or another and you're welcome to disagree regarding their current needs but I have my own data points.

david

Edit- the other point I made is that Wilson & EA speakers have nothing in common and similar sensitivity figure doesn't mean that they behave the same; do your speakers have anything at all in common with Wilson that I missed?

ALF · Feb 28, 2018

Showtime

ddk said:
What am I wrong about Jonathan, the subs aren't active with class D amps? Or Mike didn't spend a lot of time fine tuning the subs to the Darts, his accounts of that are somewhere on the forum. Over the last 20 years I handled enough speakers with Accuton drivers to know their nature, it isn't a knock on the EA one way or another and you're welcome to disagree regarding their current needs but I have my own data points.

Alright! Ride’em cowboys; as we say in Texas...”Margaritas, chips!”

Cheers!
ALF

cjfrbw · Feb 28, 2018

ddk said:
Alright! Ride’em cowboys; as we say in Texas...”Margaritas, chips!”

Dueling breakfast trays at two paces!

ddk · Feb 28, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
David K. having a any old random opinion, and that musing being objectively true, are two separate concepts. he is just a guy with a viewpoint, and turf to defend.

some how we are supposed to just accept David's thoughts as correct? he has his biases and fallibilities like anyone. lots of very smart guys here have opinions. and many of them disagree with each other. and the designers of our products are smart guys too, and lot's of eye rolls happen when they read some of this stuff.

and.....I did not consult David K. prior to buying the ML3's. he found out when I posted the original post on this thread.

No bias or turf to protect Mike, there are no speaker lines that I sell or represent currently nor do I plan to carry at this point in time. Please read my post carefully I only confirmed what you said yourself with the Darts on your speakers, they like the extra power of SS and there's something different to be enjoyed with them vs a SET, I experienced the same with some of the Kharmas; is there something that you disagree with here or that the designers disagree with? As far as the integration of the subs go if combining such diverse sounding topologies works for you great but I will challenge anyone who says that the bass of ML3 and any ss topology are the same or even similar.

david

ddk · Feb 28, 2018

ALF said:
Alright! Ride’em cowboys; as we say in Texas...”Margaritas, chips!”

Cheers!
ALF

There's no high noon here Allen

. Do people disagree that higher current ss amplifiers bring something to the table with EA speakers?

david

ALF · Feb 28, 2018

ddk said:
ALF said:

There's no high noon here Allen . Do people disagree that higher current ss amplifiers bring something to the table with EA speakers?

david

Click to expand...

What, no Limes, my friend !

ddk · Feb 28, 2018

ALF said:
ddk said:

What, no Limes, my friend !

Click to expand...

Not even lemon peels! The other thing I said is that there's nothing in common between Wilson & EA speakers and that similar sensitivity figures don't make them the same, doubt anyone from either company will disagree.

david

ddk · Feb 28, 2018

BruceD said:
David K's comment on the ceramic driver issue begs the question it may've been prudent for him to confer with Mike BEFORE M purchased the Lamms-no?

and stating the facts as he knew them relating to a possible "mismatch".

I trial before committing may have saved the Angst and conjecture.

BruceD

It's not a question of mismatch Bruce because there isn't one, I was only addressing Mike's comments liking different things about each amplifier on his speakers, I gave a reason why it's not clear cut one way or another somehow it came across as an attack of sorts which it wasn't.

david

BruceD · Feb 28, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
David K. having a any old random opinion, and that musing being objectively true, are two separate concepts. he is just a guy with a viewpoint, and turf to defend.

some how we are supposed to just accept David's thoughts as correct? he has his biases and fallibilities like anyone. lots of very smart guys here have opinions. and many of them disagree with each other. and the designers of our products are smart guys too, and lot's of eye rolls happen when they read some of this stuff.

and.....I did not consult David K. prior to buying the ML3's. he found out when I posted the original post on this thread.

Ah fine!--thank you Mike for the measured reply--there are some envious folks here(Moi !!) and indeed following your journey to a place know I will never experience

Kudos for the Voyage and enjoy!

we're riding it with ya!

BruceD

ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

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