ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

Mike Lavigne · Feb 25, 2018

rockitman said:
It seems to me that it wouldn't be that hard to "zeel" the ML3. Switch the rca input jacks to BNC ???

you could, but you lose 6db of gain.

in my system the ML3's are alive and feel they have grip and headroom; lower the gain by 6db and it would just be ok in terms of being able to control the speaker. like lowering the speaker efficiency from 97db to 94db (or 92db) plus having to power the whole bass frequencies. with modest power these small things become musically significant.

no doubt the 50 ohm interface has sonic merits objectively all other things being equal. but better it's part of the whole design approach especially for an amplifier. line level gear normally it's fine adding it on as drive/gain is not typically a problem. adding it onto my King Cello was a big plus and transformed it's performance in my system over the conventional interfaces.

Iamrael · Feb 25, 2018

Were any of these 'grounding' issues related to Tripoint/Entreq?

Steve Williams · Feb 25, 2018

ddk said:
He had a noisy tube we swapped out but that's a different thing, this is a ground issue Francisco. Not unique to them but both ML2 & specially ML3 are sensitive to ground resistance imbalance between equipment, specially the ML3 and I've dealt with it in almost every setup I've been involved in including my own. Russ & Marty visited a friend yesterday with ML3's, he had the same noise problem which I took care of for him and it's completely silent now. The amp is always dead silent by itself but ground noise creeps in sometimes with the connection of the pre but usually after connecting other equipment to pre's inputs.

david

Totally agree with this David

If you recall I had a ground loop hum which initially was dealt with by lifting the ground on the amps. Later after you left I narrowed it down to the LP1 Signature as the cause. Lifting the ground in the phono stage solved the problem however when you and I talked we both agreed that the phono stage should be grounded. So we lifted the ground on the LL1 only and Amps are plugged directly into the wall. Mine now is totally silent.

microstrip · Feb 25, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
you could, but you lose 6db of gain.

in my system the ML3's are alive and feel they have grip and headroom; lower the gain by 6db and it would just be ok in terms of being able to control the speaker. like lowering the speaker efficiency from 97db to 94db (or 92db) plus having to power the whole bass frequencies. with modest power these small things become musically significant.

no doubt the 50 ohm interface has merits objectively. but better it's part of the whole design approach especially for an amplifier. line level gear normally is fine adding it on as drive is not typically a problem.

Are you using similar numeric levels in the preamplifier to those you were using with the 458?

rockitman · Feb 25, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
you could, but you lose 6db of gain.

in my system the ML3's are alive and feel they have grip and headroom; lower the gain by 6db and it would just be ok in terms of being able to control the speaker. like lowering the speaker efficiency from 97db to 94db (or 92db) plus having to power the whole bass frequencies. with modest power these small things become musically significant.

rca out 6dB higher than BNC/Zeel on the Dart ?

microstrip · Feb 25, 2018

rockitman said:
rca out 6dB higher than BNC/Zeel on the Dart ?

Probably the 50 ohm termination reduces the amplitude of the signal to half.

rockitman · Feb 25, 2018

microstrip said:
Probably the 50 ohm termination reduces the amplitude of the signal to half.

Makes sense. I wouldn't want to lose 6dB either.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 25, 2018

microstrip said:
Are you using similar numeric levels in the preamplifier to those you were using with the 458?

typically about 3-5db additional gain for the ML3; typical (-4) to (-12) verses (-7) to (-15)) for the 458's. but the gain of the 458's could have been reduced. and I can go to +3 or +5 with the ML3's without any noise or other issues.

the choice of musical program seems to influence the ML3's as to the difference. 'bigger' music pushes the difference higher.

last night when Jazdoc and his son visited, there was maybe 2 or 3 cuts all night where we reached the upper point where we could have used more power. the darts would not even have been breathing hard. but the ML3's were happy and sounded great on those cuts, only that they could not soar in an unlimited fashion as I am used to hearing (which is an essential driver for my system building efforts.....hence wanting 2 different amplifier choices).

Steve Williams · Feb 25, 2018

But do you really give up six DB of gain using an XLR cable in the lamm electronics. Lamm does not have any balanced circuitry in the ML3. There is an XLR input but it is not balanced

microstrip · Feb 25, 2018

rockitman said:
Makes sense. I wouldn't want to lose 6dB either.

Just found that Mike went from a 32 dB gain amplifier - the NH458 to a 25dB one - the ML3. Probably this additional loss of 6dB would be critical.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 25, 2018

Steve Williams said:
But do you really give up six DB of gain using an XLR cable in the lamm electronics. Lamm does not have any balanced circuitry in the ML3. There is an XLR input but it is not balanced

Steve, I don't really know the answer to your question. using the XLR's yesterday I did perceive more gain, but cannot say 100% that was true......could have been a tonal shift that made it seem brighter and more powerful sounding. but I did not care for the sound at all, thinking it was the cables breaking in but likely more than just that. so don't know what is going on there.

ddk · Feb 25, 2018

Steve Williams said:
But do you really give up six DB of gain using an XLR cable in the lamm electronics. Lamm does not have any balanced circuitry in the ML3. There is an XLR input but it is not balanced

It's nothing to do with the Lamm amps seems like the Dart pre has outputs with different gains but I'm not familiar with it.

david

microstrip · Feb 25, 2018

Steve Williams said:
But do you really give up six DB of gain using an XLR cable in the lamm electronics. Lamm does not have any balanced circuitry in the ML3. There is an XLR input but it is not balanced

We are addressing the attenuation when using the DartZeel BNC 50 ohm mode - it halves the amplitude as the output resistor of the preamplifier - 50 ohms - and the 50 ohm BNC input resistor create a divider. Nothing to do with the Lamm XLRs - that are just disguised SE's!

microstrip · Feb 25, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
typically about 3-5db additional gain for the ML3; typical (-4) to (-12) verses (-7) to (-15)) for the 458's. but the gain of the 458's could have been reduced. and I can go to +3 or +5 with the ML3's without any noise or other issues.

the choice of musical program seems to influence the ML3's as to the difference. 'bigger' music pushes the difference higher.

last night when Jazdoc and his son visited, there was maybe 2 or 3 cuts all night where we reached the upper point where we could have used more power. the darts would not even have been breathing hard. but the ML3's were happy and sounded great on those cuts, only that they could not soar in an unlimited fashion as I am used to hearing (which is an essential driver for my system building efforts.....hence wanting 2 different amplifier choices).

Thanks - I see the gain situation much better now.

Folsom · Feb 25, 2018

Iamrael said:
Were any of these 'grounding' issues related to Tripoint/Entreq?

He unhooked them, and it made no difference. I forget what page he mentioned this on.

Balanced Voltage XLR. If you think about it, balanced has two stages for every one that SE has. So usually the voltage is double or a bit more. SE is common around 2v, and balanced frequently 6v. It isnt necessarily gain, it is that the volume control is starting with something at twice the voltage (volume) on the same setting.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 25, 2018

Folsom said:
He unhooked them, and it made no difference. I forget what page he mentioned this on.

no; the Tripoint Troy Signature (chassis ground post on the power supply) and Entreq Poseidon ground (biwire negative speaker terminal) are connected to the ML3's. the only time I removed them was when David and I were sleuthing the noise issues and that was temporary. but I've not slowed down enough from the bigger issues to examine their effects. I figured I would wait until i (1) sorted out the various fundamental things like noise and position and cables, and (2) got a comfort level with the nuances and feel for the ML3's performance.

i'm getting there now, so soon I will remove those ground wires and listen for what happens. but i'm not quite ready to do that.

at one point I may have mentioned I removed them but did not notice any change. but with grounding things are not so obvious, although there are times when it is. but tubes don't quite give you that 'apparent' clarity as great solid state will to hear tiny things in the same way. micro detail manifests itself in a different way with the two topologies. you don't see the individual pin heads, but you might feel each pin prick.

asiufy · Feb 25, 2018

rockitman said:
rca out 6dB higher than BNC/Zeel on the Dart ?

I don't recall that being the case. The RCA *inputs* could gain a +6dB boost, but not the *outputs*. But this might've changed in the new 18NS...
I'd still try the Zeel output with an adapter on the Lamm amps...

RBFC · Feb 25, 2018

Gentlemen,

Please debate the post and information within. The internet is a useless personal battleground; opinions are rarely forced onto another here. Please be respectful.

Lee

Mike Lavigne · Feb 25, 2018

RBFC said:
Gentlemen,

Please debate the post and information within. The internet is a useless personal battleground; opinions are rarely forced onto another here. Please be respectful.

Lee

Lee,

was this the correct thread for your warning post? I have not noticed any personal conflict here. if you delete your post, please also delete mine. thanks.

Mike

Folsom · Feb 25, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
no; the Tripoint Troy Signature (chassis ground post on the power supply) and Entreq Poseidon ground (biwire negative speaker terminal) are connected to the ML3's. the only time I removed them was when David and I were sleuthing the noise issues and that was temporary. but I've not slowed down enough from the bigger issues to examine their effects. I figured I would wait until i (1) sorted out the various fundamental things like noise and position and cables, and (2) got a comfort level with the nuances and feel for the ML3's performance.

i'm getting there now, so soon I will remove those ground wires and listen for what happens. but i'm not quite ready to do that.

at one point I may have mentioned I removed them but did not notice any change. but with grounding things are not so obvious, although there are times when it is. but tubes don't quite give you that 'apparent' clarity as great solid state will to hear tiny things in the same way. micro detail manifests itself in a different way with the two topologies. you don't see the individual pin heads, but you might feel each pin prick.

Same difference. You unhooked them to check for the problem, and the result was no, grounding boxes didn't add 60hz noise.

That is an interesting analogy between SS and tubes. I may have to think on it for a minute.

I can tell you that in tube gear that uses output transformers, they have much higher impedance paths with inductors and larger resistances. For that reason grounding boxes see a much more difficult path, and won't be able to exert the same exact kind of effects as with SS.

ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

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