ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

Mike Lavigne · Feb 22, 2018

Xander did clearly pick up on and appreciate the differences between how my system performed on familiar music, and how HI-Fi Guys system performed. and he articulated what was different and how he felt about it. and even some of why it did that based on my answers to his questions. those things are interesting to him, and I can see more of that going forward when he visits again.

but it's up to Xander to say......"hey, why do you have different amplifiers?, what is special about those?"

....and we will then go from there.

spiritofmusic · Feb 22, 2018

No argument from me .
He’s your friend, and it’s your home.
Sorry if I transgressed a line.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 22, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
No argument from me .
He’s your friend, and it’s your home.
Sorry if I transgressed a line.

we have disputes, objectivity is always desired but rarely found. I get where you were going. a logical idea no doubt. no worries. nothing to apologize about.

spiritofmusic · Feb 22, 2018

I make one (easy) prediction.
Whatever you play, analog, digital, thru the Lamms, Darts, he’ll love the lot. That’s as objective as I can get LOL.

spiritofmusic · Feb 22, 2018

“And back to our usual program”...Mike needs to keep us updated on how the Lamms listening is coming along, I’ll do my best not to further disrupt his flow. Hoping for some interesting thoughts on contrasts btwn, and perspectives from, the Lamms and Darts comparison.

cjfrbw · Feb 22, 2018

The ML3 is probably the only ML purchase in the last ten years of "really expensive, really shiny audio objects and lots of them" that actually makes some sense to me.

Ron Resnick · Feb 22, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
. . .
But if you expect this thread to stay with “great Mike”, “what a find Mike”, “how is it today Mike?”, then you must think we’re a pretty sycophantic bunch .
. . .
Otherwise we’ll all end up with a forum that wanker P Breuninger would approve of, slavish adoration at the altar.

Okay, Marc, fair enough I will stop giving you a hard time now.

We definitely do not want sycophants. We definitely do not want slavish adoration at the altar. (Except at the altar of tape! Hahaha!

)

Not that it matters one way or the other but you know that I don't have any interest in climbing over a decision tree either every time I sit down to listen to music. Frankly, it is only the reports, experiences and inclinations of members like David and Christian and Tang which make me even contemplate the idea of having options on certain types of components.

But even there I do not foresee keeping permanently in my system the pairs I am considering. I really just want to be able to make a very carefully considered and thoughtful "keep it/sell it" decision on amplifiers and on tonearm/cartridge combinations. I suspect these are going to be very close calls, and it likely will take me a long time to figure out which component of each pair I prefer.

Like you, I do not have any desire to have different "flavors" at my beck and call. At this moment I assume (without knowing) that I will like one amp better than the other and that I will like one tonearm/cartridge combination better than the other. I am pretty sure I will keep only my favorite in each category.

But maybe once I have the options in house I will want to keep them. I have two favorite flavors of ice cream, not one.

spiritofmusic · Feb 22, 2018

Tape? Sure, I love my compilation TDK C90 CrO2 cassette tapes made when I was a teen.

RogerD · Feb 22, 2018

Both the Darts and the Lamms use different types of transformers and both types have distinct sonic signatures. My mono blocks use very large toroidal transformers that are very neutral and took a very long time to perfect as far as overcoming leakage effects. The Lamms seem to use a non toroidal type custom transformer..."The most advanced technical solutions have been employed in the design of this amplifier. The custom-made output transformer is of peerless quality".
Maybe not everybody's focus or how to isolate if one would hear the differences in the transformer designs in both amplifiers sans tubes vs SS. Just a thought of audio esoterica.

spiritofmusic · Feb 22, 2018

We agree there Ron. I love the idea of choice every so often (upgrading), just not parallel choices at the same time.
And from now on, I’m not even upgrading anymore, my current choice of components chosen over the 2012-2015 period are keepers for life.

KeithR · Feb 22, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
Why are members trying to be armchair psychologists, instead of listening to what Mike actually is writing?

Marc, not everyone has to love tubes to vindicate your love (and my love) of tubes.

+1

Too many people on this thread care about their opinions more than Mikes.

Ron Resnick · Feb 22, 2018

KeithR said:
+1

Too many people on this thread care about their opinions more than Mike's.

+1

cjfrbw · Feb 22, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
We agree there Ron. I love the idea of choice every so often (upgrading), just not parallel choices at the same time.
And from now on, I’m not even upgrading anymore, my current choice of components chosen over the 2012-2015 period are keepers for life.

Heh, heh! I think this is a remark no audiophile should probably ever make!

morricab · Feb 22, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
Okay, Marc, fair enough I will stop giving you a hard time now.

We definitely do not want sycophants. We definitely do not want slavish adoration at the altar. (Except at the altar of tape! Hahaha! )

Not that it matters one way or the other but you know that I don't have any interest in climbing over a decision tree either every time I sit down to listen to music. Frankly, it is only the reports, experiences and inclinations of members like David and Christian and Tang which make me even contemplate the idea of having options on certain types of components.

But even there I do not foresee keeping permanently in my system the pairs I am considering. I really just want to be able to make a very carefully considered and thoughtful "keep it/sell it" decision on amplifiers and on tonearm/cartridge combinations. I suspect these are going to be very close calls, and it likely will take me a long time to figure out which component of each pair I prefer.

Like you, I do not have any desire to have different "flavors" at my beck and call. At this moment I assume (without knowing) that I will like one amp better than the other and that I will like one tonearm/cartridge combination better than the other. I am pretty sure I will keep only my favorite in each category.

But maybe once I have the options in house I will want to keep them. I have two favorite flavors of ice cream, not one.

But sound quality is not ice cream, Ron! With music, there is a reference...

morricab · Feb 22, 2018

RogerD said:
Both the Darts and the Lamms use different types of transformers and both types have distinct sonic signatures. My mono blocks use very large toroidal transformers that are very neutral and took a very long time to perfect as far as overcoming leakage effects. The Lamms seem to use a non toroidal type custom transformer..."The most advanced technical solutions have been employed in the design of this amplifier. The custom-made output transformer is of peerless quality".
Maybe not everybody's focus or how to isolate if one would hear the differences in the transformer designs in both amplifiers sans tubes vs SS. Just a thought of audio esoterica.

Are you talking about power or output transformers? Darts do not have output transformers...Lamms of course do. To my knowledge only McIntosh regularly uses output transformers for SS amps.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 22, 2018

morricab said:
But sound quality is not ice cream, Ron! With music, there is a reference...

but which reference for music do we use to judge hifi?

I think we use the recording which comes in all shapes and sizes, and degrees of space and naturalness, relationships to the source....and variations of dynamic energy.

some think an acoustic live environment is the only reference.

is either right or wrong?

and do we choose a system telling you only the truth? or do we want a bit of enhancement to the truth? and who is to assign weights positive or negative to those variances?

no; we all have our own references for music. or multiple references to match our multiple systems, speakers, turntables, or tone arms, or cartridges, or dacs, or...amplifiers.

some, of course, claim to have special insight into the one view. I agree it is special....for them. and we do seem to gravitate toward people and systems that align with our own viewpoints.

spiritofmusic · Feb 22, 2018

CJ, as you know, I have dabbled w the concept of Apogees, and for many practical (and taste) reasons, have reluctantly declined. Horns are another matter, and I’m seriously tempted by a couple of examples that appeal.
I would need to spend at least £30k each on new analog and digital to significantly beat my current tt and cdp, £35k to beat my current amps, and at least £40-50k on a pr of horns to properly surpass my Zus.
These are the reasons amongst others I’m off the upgrading components path.
Horns still call out to me, and if one extra special example becomes irresistible, then maybe I’ll treat myself to one last gear purchase. Sadurni Acoustics out of Texas, and Haigner out of Austria are in my sights.
In the meantime, vibration isolation to my existing gear will scratch my upgrade itch.
I’d hate to be ostracised from WBF for not complying w the First Commandment: “Thou shalt always be buying stuff”.

Tango · Feb 22, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
and do we choose a system telling you only the truth? or do we want a bit of enhancement to the truth? and who is to assign weights positive or negative to those variances?

no; we all have our own references for music. or multiple references to match our multiple systems, speakers, turntables, or tone arms, or cartridges, or dacs, or...amplifiers.

some, of course, claim to have special insight into the one view. I agree it is special....for them. and we do seem to gravitate toward people and systems that align with our own viewpoints.

This is so true. Thats why I never argue or oppose one's view point on what sounds real. Instead I try to understand what kind of sound the person who makes comment thinks is wonderful and closer to real. And another reason I have different combinations of tt, arm, cart is I can actually cater each combo to offer sound fit to different viewpoints or preferences.

Btw, my approach in having many tts and phonos is a lot more convenient and less backache than two sets of amps Mike

.

Kind regards,
Tang

Mike Lavigne · Feb 22, 2018

Tango said:
This is so true. Thats why I never argue or oppose one's view point on what sounds real. Instead I try to understand what kind of sound the person who makes comment thinks is wonderful and closer to real. And another reason I have different combinations of tt, arm, cart is I can actually cater each combo to offer sound fit to different viewpoints or preferences.

Btw, my approach in having many tts and phonos is a lot more convenient and less backache than two sets of amps Mike .

Kind regards,
Tang

Dear Tang,

at this point in time I'm not sure how I will deal with switching amplifiers during a listening session, like you can easily do without a thought with tone arms or phono stages. how frequently will I do that? will it be such that I rarely do it? or all the time? will others only want to hear it one way, or the other way? what about warm-up time and how that plays out. don't really know, it's something new.

I am fortunate to have a 270 pound, strong, Son, whose thoughtfulness allows me the latitude of dealing with heavy amplifiers. and he knows if I am injured then he will have to assist me even more. but agree that tone arms and cartridges are not physically intimidating in the same way.

heavy turntables are a whole separate subject matter. at least they are set and forget as far as moving around. for that matter my amps are now in their permanent spots too. I just have to deal with the heavy speaker cables, unless I find some different one's for the ML3's.

Kind regards,

Mike

microstrip · Feb 22, 2018

Tango said:
This is so true. Thats why I never argue or oppose one's view point on what sounds real. Instead I try to understand what kind of sound the person who makes comment thinks is wonderful and closer to real.(...)

This forum misses the applause emoticon!

Great comment - it is why when reading people writings we must "enter" in their systems and preferences. It is not easy - after reading so much about Mike system those who never listened to it, including me, thought they could understand it and Mike preferences. However we just found after reading the first post of this thread that we were very far away from it.

ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

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