ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

Mike Lavigne · Feb 23, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
1) OBJECTIVES
I am confident that the most efficient and productive discussion would start by each of us declaring our audio objective from the list of four, and, if a member considers himself to subscribe to more than one of the four objectives, to attempt to approximate for us the relative importance of those multiple objectives.

2) MUSICAL PREFERENCES
Once objectives are declared, and only after objectives are declared, then I think the next logical step is to declare the type of music in which we primarily are interested (if, and only if, there is a preference for one or more types of music over other types of music).

3) SONIC PRIORITIES
As a third step in this analytical framework I think your list makes perfect sense.

I think this analytical framework -- which I am happy to keep re-proposing -- would avoid a large amount of unnecessary confusion and needless posts and endless "talking past" each other.

400 posts in 5 days.

crazy stuff.

jeff1225 · Feb 23, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
400 posts in 5 days.

crazy stuff.

I was trying to take some heat off you with my Lamm purchase, but sadly it didn't work Mike

Ron Resnick · Feb 23, 2018

bonzo75 said:
. . .

People seem to have their own system as a reference, irrespective of whether they go to live or not. Those with SETs keep on on SETs. Marc had his SET reference before he started attending live shows and after that too. So either he knew what's a live sound before, or he is still wrong, or plain coincidence. Peter has his resolution reference, which is a Magico Pass characteristic. Those who need a live reference should reset their references by selling off their system and not owning one . No kidding. It took me 6 months or more after not having speakers to override my home sound template with a real sound template, till then irrespective of what you hear in the hall after you come home and play your own system for a few hours over a few days it is your home system sound that enters in your subconscious. And we all judge other sounds by that template in the subconscious.

Completely inadvertently (I did not intend to buy a house which needed to be rebuilt) I see my experience in what Kedar wrote. 1) I have not had my own stereo system for five years and counting. 2) During this period I have heard two or three dozen systems at friends's homes and dealer showrooms (let's exclude all audio shows). 3) I have listened to live music more frequently than at any other period on my life (still not weekly, like Kedar).

So I actually think I have done exactly what Kedar posted here.

Maybe this is why I am less focused on re-creating a better version of the sound of the stereo system I had for 18 years, and more interested in achieving -- based on a reference of a) live, unamplified music, as well as b) some sort of mental composite of things I heard during system audition sessions -- a more neutral, yet still natural and musical and emotionally involving, sound than I achieved with my first main system?

Tango · Feb 23, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
400 posts in 5 days.

crazy stuff.

Told you... you are great at waking up people.
Last time was the antivibe thingie.

Kind regards,
Tang

spiritofmusic · Feb 23, 2018

Mike is The Pied Piper Of Audio Hamlin.

bonzo75 · Feb 23, 2018

Ron Resnick said:
(still not weekly, like Kedar).

Last Friday, Jonas Kaufman and Diana Damrau at the Barbican. Sunday cancelled Kavakos to travel 4 hours to listen to Roderick Williams and Iain Burnside do Schubert's Wintereise. Tuesday Carmen at Royal Opera House. Wednesday Steve Isserlis doing Shostakovich's Cello Sonata at Wigmore Hall. Thursday some ancient music in a church. There were many before last Friday, of course. Yes and these, like Led Zep, are not best reproduced by SETs, unfortunately. In fact, unless you have horns, SETs are my least choice for amps to produce the music that I hear the way I hear. Push Pull valves are much better on a conventional speaker as well as a good SS. Can always have exceptions. The lack of drive and musical energy when they are not on a horn just makes them not for me - I hear some color in the mids that gets boring pretty quickly. All conventional speakers I have heard them on require sufficient drive that SETs don't have

NorthStar · Feb 23, 2018

??

spiritofmusic said:
Mike is The Pied Piper Of Audio Hamlin.

:b

Tango · Feb 23, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Last Friday, Jonas Kaufman and Diana Damrau at the Barbican. Sunday cancelled Kavakos to travel 4 hours to listen to Roderick Williams and Iain Burnside do Schubert's Wintereise. Tuesday Carmen at Royal Opera House. Wednesday Steve Isserlis doing Shostakovich's Cello Sonata at Wigmore Hall. Thursday some ancient music in a church. There were many before last Friday, of course.

And yet I dont hear much from you refering to acoustic unamplified live music experience to make your comments legit.

Tang

Ron Resnick · Feb 23, 2018

Let's continue the discussions about musical references here:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ound-of-our-Audio-Systems&p=496571#post496571

Please free to copy and paste to this new thread posts you have made on this ML3/458 thread so we can maintain the continuity of this discussion on the new thread.

DaveyF · Feb 23, 2018

ddk said:
Depends on the venue, recording and the system Davey, that same explosion heard 5' away will be barely noticeable if played at a typical rock venue stadium, amplify and crank it up as you want but it's the not same. Context matters.

david

??? Why would any pro musician take an acoustic steel string onto a stage at a stadium and play without sound re-enforcement??? Therefore, the sound of the 'unamplified' instrument becomes amplified...unless you want to be drowned out that is!
I fall to see the relevance/logic of your post.

ddk · Feb 23, 2018

DaveyF said:
??? Why would any pro musician take an acoustic steel string onto a stage at a stadium and play without sound re-enforcement??? Therefore, the sound of the 'unamplified' instrument becomes amplified...unless you want to be drowned out that is!
I fall to see the relevance/logic of your post.

It refers to your comment regarding energy from your steel guitar and I was pointing out that energy is relative to distance and space and even reinforced it won't have the same energy when sitting 5' away from an instrument played in a small enclosed space, how many such recordings are out there? And that same guitar in a different venue can be easily reproducible by many systems.

david

KeithR · Feb 23, 2018

the sound of Tao · Feb 23, 2018

JackD201 said:
Sierras Jeff. Premium compression drivers on l'cleach types with front horn bass. Duelund cabling and caps, and carbon graphite resistors. Just one each for each midrange horn. Jazz is just KILLER with these.

Nice. Sounding like a super tasty combo Jack, you are making for yourself some wonderful setups... sounds like there’s maybe still a hillside retreat with some serious bespoke listening spaces appearing somewhere in your future.

JackD201 · Feb 23, 2018

That is the dream Tao. Mid century modern

I have the property already, just need the scratch to build

DaveyF · Feb 23, 2018

ddk said:
It refers to your comment regarding energy from your steel guitar and I was pointing out that energy is relative to distance and space and even reinforced it won't have the same energy when sitting 5' away from an instrument played in a small enclosed space, how many such recordings are out there? And that same guitar in a different venue can be easily reproducible by many systems.

david

??? "That same guitar in a different venue can be easily reproducible by many systems"...sure, if you consider reproduced as a mere shadow of what the 'real' sounds like.
Are you one of those people that believes that their system actually sounds identical to the sound of 'real unamplified instruments"??

ddk · Feb 23, 2018

DaveyF said:
??? "That same guitar in a different venue can be easily reproducible by many systems"...sure, if you consider reproduced as a mere shadow of what the 'real' sounds like.
Are you one of those people that believes that their system actually sounds identical to the sound of 'real unamplified instruments"??

1:1 is your challenge not mine and yes I can reproduce a believable lifelike venue at home.

david

Al M. · Feb 23, 2018

DaveyF said:
??? "That same guitar in a different venue can be easily reproducible by many systems"...sure, if you consider reproduced as a mere shadow of what the 'real' sounds like.
Are you one of those people that believes that their system actually sounds identical to the sound of 'real unamplified instruments"??

I think you are missing David's point here. Of course in a small space like your room the sound will be explosive, but not in a larger venue. We don't need to take a rock stadium, but for example just the relatively small concert hall in the Boston Center for Fine Arts where I heard a concert last Sunday. If you play the guitar there, the explosiveness will be far diminished compared to your room, even when you sit in the first row. Other, louder instruments though will sound explosive there.

My system can quite well represent the explosiveness of an ensemble of about 20 musicians (incl. brass), heard in the 4th row in Payne Halll in Cambridge Mass., a small to midsized concert hall (the depth of timbre of the instruments is a different matter). Could it represent the explosiveness of a five-piece brass ensemble playing in a small cafe, i.e. a venue with much smaller acoustic volume? Not the slightest bit of a chance.

Tango · Feb 23, 2018

Reproduced music is already clear by its definition. Why bother trying to explain how it sounds different from real.

No one is saying they sound the same. Are we not in the same hobby. If someone say his her system can reproduce in some approximity to real we should be glad for the person. If someone say his her system sounds not even close to real we should wish the person all the best to get better sound.

Kind regards,
Tang

rockitman · Feb 23, 2018

I might have missed it...is the low level hum now gone ? TIA

Mike Lavigne · Feb 23, 2018

rockitman said:
I might have missed it...is the low level hum now gone ? TIA

yes; zero noise from the listening position. at about 3 feet to my ear to the tweeter i hear a hum with the preamp muted. with the preamp un-muted the same and the hum does not increase with the volume. so basically no issue with hum. the dart pre seems an excellent match. done futzing for now.

just listening to different types of music to get the full picture of what is going on. really enjoying just listening and trying not to listen critically. beautiful really. the bass is addicting, great sense of authority and very enveloping kind of presentation. maybe glosses over detail here and there i was use to with the darts, but then brings this wonderful shimmering delicacy and liquidity to the music.

thrilled with where it takes me. along for the ride right now. lots of 'suspension of disbelief' and just sailing along.

effortlessly holographic. reach out and touch it kind of presentation. 'apparently' 100% coherent and balanced sound.

ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

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