ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

microstrip · Feb 20, 2018

morricab said:
Ok, fine; however, you didn't really explain what you meant by "your measurements". What measurements did you make and with what kind of equipment?

i do not think Cheever ever followed up on his master's work. However, it is consistent with other work done in the field (mostly well in the past) and more recently by Geddes et al. IMO, this is of supreme importance to current SOTA high-end. I have heard far too many high priced "high end" systems that simply sounded wrong to realize that pricincles of psychoacoustics are generally not being followed but the bling and price paradigms are in full control of the market.

I reported it too many times in WBF - just comparing the accumulated spectra of noise . Distortion did not show any systematic difference with different tubes. Microphony to tapping with a rubber mallet also did not help. I used a 24bit 192 kHz EMU USB soundcard with Spectraplus.

At some point our preferences determine what sounds wrong and right to us. It is extremely easy to get techno-science arguments and studies to support any of our preferences or point of views in the high-end. I try to avoid the perspective of the micro-cosmos that goes the correct way while all else is going wrong and sorry, I smile every time I read about the principles of "psycho-acoustics" in audio forums - here comes the story that our hearing evolved to escape the predators ...

Steve Williams · Feb 20, 2018

Micro

You said it better than I. Yes the LL1 (1.1) is the best preamp for Lamm amps.

DaveyF · Feb 20, 2018

microstrip said:
Morricab,

I reported my direct opinion about 6H30 when used with ARC and some of findings with my measurements. It was DaveyF main concern.

Actually no!

Assumptions like that are fairly typical on the web.

I stated that tube rolling has proven to me to be beneficial with all of the tube gear that I have heard. As to the ARC gear, the post from dminches says it all.

One of the things that confuses me here is that tube rolling has no down side. If you don't like the result, simply replace with the original tubes....so why the major hesitancy??
If we are ponying up $130K+ for the amps---what's the big deal with spending just a few $$ for NOS tubes?? I'm not getting the hesitancy.

Mike Lavigne · Feb 20, 2018

DaveyF said:
Actually no!

Assumptions like that are fairly typical on the web.

I stated that tube rolling has proven to me to be beneficial with all of the tube gear that I have heard. As to the ARC gear, the post from dminches says it all.

One of the things that confuses me here is that tube rolling has no down side. If you don't like the result, simply replace with the original tubes....so why the major hesitancy??
If we are ponying up $130K+ for the amps---what's the big deal with spending just a few $$ for NOS tubes?? I'm not getting the hesitancy.

Davey,

I must admit I was too hasty yesterday in my response to you about not tube rolling with the ML3's. the more I learn about the ML3's, I'm realizing the less I know. and so i'll take my time to see where things go but will be open to finding the ideal tubes. I will try to keep it simple, but only as simple as it needs to be.

I do appreciate all the helpful information posted about tubes for the ML3 and will be able to return to this thread and get info to investigate.

Jazzhead · Feb 20, 2018

Wow , congrats Mike. Wishing you a happy luxuriating wallow .. I suppose the matching pre will surface at some point , only a matter of time ....

cjfrbw · Feb 20, 2018

Lamm ML3. Still to me the best amplifier I have heard, when combined synergistically with Steve William's Alexandrias in Danville many moons ago now.

Nothing I have heard texturizes the music quite like it, a Sistine Chapel of sound that hits all the audiophile G spots.

I don't care that much for the rest of the Lamm stuff I have heard so much, but the ML3 is in a league of it's own.

adyc · Feb 20, 2018

morricab said:
Agreed, most tube amps are no better than most SS amps...all unnatural sounding but usually in different ways. I would go so far as to say that only SET has the potential to get closest to what our ear/brain considers natural...I know that rubs a lot (most) owners of other technologies the wrong way but that is the way I hear it and what the psychoacoustics suggests as well. I suspect the Darts will get less and less usage over time...

I just switched back from SET to SS. My new SS does everything better. I respect your opinion but everyone hears differently.

bonzo75 · Feb 20, 2018

adyc said:
I just switched back from SET to SS. My new SS does everything better. I respect your opinion but everyone hears differently.

Hi, what did you switch to? Thought you had the big VAC

the sound of Tao · Feb 20, 2018

+1 on the wow, you are wonderfully spoiled for choice between 2 sets of the great amps Mike, congratulations, hope they add another dimension of joy to all your listening experiences.

microstrip · Feb 20, 2018

DaveyF said:
Actually no!

Assumptions like that are fairly typical on the web.

I stated that tube rolling has proven to me to be beneficial with all of the tube gear that I have heard. As to the ARC gear, the post from dminches says it all.

One of the things that confuses me here is that tube rolling has no down side. If you don't like the result, simply replace with the original tubes....so why the major hesitancy??
If we are ponying up $130K+ for the amps---what's the big deal with spending just a few $$ for NOS tubes?? I'm not getting the hesitancy.

Surely people are free to roll or not to roll. We are just giving our opinions on our experience on it and commenting on it. No one here is a judge or an advisor.

I read a few categoric statements from a very few users claiming extraordinary benefits when using almost unavailable tubes in ARC equipment . And IMHO and experience people sometimes are just detecting the effect of differences in gain - a measurable effect that can be obtained turning the volume button. Or even worse, comparing tubes without burn - in or aged worn out tubes with fresh well burned-in tubes coming from good sources.

BTW, do you electrically calibrate your equipment?

microstrip · Feb 20, 2018

Steve Williams said:
Micro

You said it better than I. Yes the LL1 (1.1) is the best preamp for Lamm amps.

But we could carry a thought experiment (gedankenerfahrung) for fun - what would sound better in Mike system : a Lamm LL1.1 + Dart 458 or the Dart NH18 + Lamm ML3? Perhaps soon Mike will be able to carry the real experiment!

spiritofmusic · Feb 20, 2018

Mike is obviously having quite the party running his new Lamm monos.
Since he’s getting such a positive experience, I can’t see how he can easily resist the siren call of an all-Lamm chain: pre-phono-monos.
It’s surprisingly easy to keep spending his cash LOL (sorry Mike).

kevinkwann · Feb 20, 2018

microstrip said:
But we could carry a thought experiment (gedankenerfahrung) for fun - what would sound better in Mike system : a Lamm ML1.1 + Dart 458 or the Dart NH18 + Lamm ML3? Perhaps soon Mike will be able to carry the real experiment!

The Lamm ML1.1 + Dart 458 might be a troublesome combination given that they are both amplifiers.

microstrip · Feb 20, 2018

kevinkwann said:
The Lamm ML1.1 + Dart 458 might be a troublesome combination given that they are both amplifiers.

Thanks - just corrected the typo!

Ron Resnick · Feb 20, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
ok. been listening for the last 2-3 hours to the ML3s . . .

the sound is heavenly. and the synergy between my system and the ML3's is about perfect. the bass is absolutely coherent, the top end is extended and everything else is astonishing. the ML3's are total space machines, and have lots of weight and power down low. i'd say there is more 'apparent weight' to the ML3's than the darts.....

. . . i'm awestruck. the ML3's do every kind of music, right now i'm listening to Beethoven's 7th Symphony, and it's all there. yes; the throttle is a bit more conservative than I might consider with the darts......but there is no lessening of energy i'm hearing. all the space is there. and there is an added flow and 'suspension of disbelief' to the music. it's more dimensional and compelling. the view into the inner musical truth and emotional content is addicting.

these are first impressions in the honeymoon context of a new toy. we need a few back and forth's between the two amplifiers and a bit of time and perspective to really get a feel for how this will be. right now i'm under the spell.

I truly am very happy for you Mike! How exciting that even with your amazing system there still can be new musical beauty to discover!

Your description is exactly why us tube lovers love them tubes!

LL21 · Feb 20, 2018

Great feedback Mike...what a fantastic place for us to hear about how the Lamm's fare...in a system like yours and with ears like yours. Look forward to reading more. Enjoy.

ddk · Feb 20, 2018

morricab said:
Agreed, most tube amps are no better than most SS amps...all unnatural sounding but usually in different ways. I would go so far as to say that only SET has the potential to get closest to what our ear/brain considers natural...I know that rubs a lot (most) owners of other technologies the wrong way but that is the way I hear it and what the psychoacoustics suggests as well. I suspect the Darts will get less and less usage over time...

Yes, specially high powered tube amps over 100 watts have way too much distortion and coloration and lack the ability to drive even slightly difficult speakers. I haven't had any luck finding a 30-50 watt tube integrated either, found much better SS choices out there. Agree with you on the SETs, the good ones today with the right speakers are quite wonderful.

david

ddk · Feb 20, 2018

adyc said:
I just switched back from SET to SS. My new SS does everything better. I respect your opinion but everyone hears differently.

Depends on the SET amp, there are plenty of poor sounding ones out there and I've done same after listening to several current 300B amps, but there are some great ones too.

david

Mike Lavigne · Feb 20, 2018

i'm tired after staying up very late last night listening, and then early this morning too. but; came home tonight and (1) tore my attic apart looking for my 8 meter long generic XLR I.C.'s (Orgami Gold) but could not find it, and (2) moved the ML3 power supplies back near the front wall to see if that lowers the noise (it did a little).

i'll order another set of the inexpensive XLR's to see if it lowers the noise. moving my RCA's around seems to lower the noise a little, so that likely is most of the issue. but it's not intruding on the music. still; it bugs me.

here is a couple of pics of the ML3's fired up, with the power supplies in their new spots.

rockitman · Feb 20, 2018

New cable expense...rca’s for the Lamm ? I hate buying cables...lol

ying and yang--Lamm ML3 and darTZeel 458

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