CLASH OF THE TITANS Round 2 Lamm versus Goldmund

awsmone

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Apr 6, 2014
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Well we left off with me with a bad back and Goldmund back in the system

I have spent the week, moving the adjustments to bring out some of the qualities the Lamm showed in the system in the Goldmund

So back to the shoot out

I am now comparing each single ended as I found a fault in the shorting plug se for the Lamm

Now both sound superior on the se cable ic, makes things easier

First off

The Goldmund is still much more powerful

Sound stage clarity and high frequencies are a tad better on the Goldmund

Midrange still very similar

Only in midbass clarity the Lamm moves ahead

Another thing is slam, or sudden large dynamics

The Lamm is more robust, bit like a bodybuilder lifting weights quickly to impress you

I am sure some people will like this effect, I am left a little bit thinking sits slightly unnatural and a little hurried, maybe it’s just me not sure on this one, but it’s noticeable

Also the Goldmund comes on song very quickly

The Lamm really takes a while

The Lamm is also more sensitive to dc than the Goldmund going into protection mode if I drop the stylus on the record to quickly

I still think the Lamm is better on vinyl than the Goldmund

My current theory is the Goldmund picks up the noise in the vinyl more due to its very wide bandwidth and drop clarity

Lamm seems to give greater clarity on vinyl

BUT....

Also the Lamm is a danger and life saver!

I previously broke my left little toe on the Lamm front panel 12 months ago

I took the skin off my right little toe when I tripped on it after reinstallation this morning

I came upstairs to staunch the blood with a tissue

As I sat looking outside pressing...there at the back door was a huge red back spider ( black widow for those in USA) killing a small lizard
right next to my running shoes and where my two year old often plays

After I got my breath back, and put a bandaid on I persuaded the spider to go elsewhere....the many benefits of Hifi lol
 

LL21

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Very interesting comparisons. What is the Goldmund bass like in comparison?

PS. Glad you found the spider!
 

awsmone

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Goldmund bass is excellent if not brilliant it just lacks the 3 or 4 percent texture of the the Lamm on the CLX, on another speaker there may not be the difference
 
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awsmone

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Another day another experiment

Having survived the spider episode, and my toes not too sore I thought time to change the tubes in the Lamm from Russian to actually 6922

First up was the golden lions I have left over from my blue circle amplifier, with maybe 50 hours on them

Ok this made a big difference clarity moved forward to equal the Goldmund with a nice sense of presence, maybe treble opened up more, bass much the same

Actually they now sounded my like the Goldmund except for two areas, a little extra midbass warmth on strings and maybe a little more in the presence region

Layering which was inferior to the Goldmund was on a par

Woodwind were definitely a little better on the Lamm now, and on a couple of tracks the trumpets could be delineated from each other

I am wondering whether the 6n1p23 had passed their used by date, ah the joys of Hifi .....

Tomorrow I will try electroharmonics eh, and see if I can find my telefunkens, not sure where they have gone?

Didn’t find my telefunkens but a different 6n1p23 which I know were working, will try these to see if the finding before are typical of the tube or just the first pair I tried
 
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LL21

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Goldmund bass is excellent if not brilliant it just lacks the 3 or 4 percent texture of the the Lamm on the CLX, on another speaker there may not be the difference

Thanks...interesting. Seems consistent with my memory of the Goldmund when i was comparing with Gryphon.
 

microstrip

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I have been playing with the Lamm M1.2 and found it very depending on the preamplifier. I did not like matching it directly to SS DACs, passives or some SS preamplifiers. The best sound quality I got from it was using the cj GAT. I preferred the M1.2 by a large margin when used in SE, but unfortunately it has high gain and the ARC REF40 needed balanced mode - the XLF are very efficient and otherwise we get some noise.
A great power amplifier, but needs careful selection of ancillaries and probably a Lamm preamplifier to be listened at its best, as well as a long warmup time - around one hour minimum.

All IMHO and in my system, YMMV.
 

awsmone

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Yes DDK thinks it should go with the Lamm pre

I have esoteric C02 and Halcro

It is combining very well both Halcro and..

It is also magical with EML20b pre with transformer volume control by Earle Weston
 

microstrip

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Yes DDK thinks it should go with the Lamm pre (...)

It is something I should also consider ... But I do not know of any one using Lamm electronics with the DCS Vivaldi.
 

ddk

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Yes DDK thinks it should go with the Lamm pre

I have esoteric C02 and Halcro

It is combining very well both Halcro and..

It is also magical with EML20b pre with transformer volume control by Earle Weston

There's more than synergy there between the Lamm pre and power combination. I am an interested party but it's also firmly what I believe to be true, the Lamm preamps are exceptional and the only ones I know that are equal in naturalness and musicality to Lamm amps, you're chocking the signal to the amps by using other things. The M1.2s don't embellish and pass through the signal fed, that's why you're going back & forth and noticing only small differences between the amps otherwise, irrespective of which one you prefer the delta of sound between these brands is huge.

It is something I should also consider ... But I do not know of any one using Lamm electronics with the DCS Vivaldi.

What does the Vivaldi have to do with the pre, that choice is separate from your front end.

david
 

awsmone

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Thanks David for your feedback

But give me a little more time with the Lamm, only been a couple of short days lol

Yesterday afternoon spent quite a bit of time both with 6922 and different 6n1p23

On several top recording the sound quality was exceptionally natural in timbre, clarity and soundstage on vinyl

I haven’t had a chance to a/b the two tubes yet, just tried insuccession

It makes sense the Lamm pre is natural partner

I don’t have one, so have to make do with what I do have

Will feedback once both tubes I have had a chance to compare

The sound I am now getting on vinyl is extremely pleasing , still working on digital side
 

JackD201

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Out of curiosity, which impedance/operating point setting on the M1.2 did you prefer with the CLX, High or Low?
 

microstrip

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Thanks David for your feedback

But give me a little more time with the Lamm, only been a couple of short days lol

Yesterday afternoon spent quite a bit of time both with 6922 and different 6n1p23

On several top recording the sound quality was exceptionally natural in timbre, clarity and soundstage on vinyl

I haven’t had a chance to a/b the two tubes yet, just tried insuccession

It makes sense the Lamm pre is natural partner

I don’t have one, so have to make do with what I do have

Will feedback once both tubes I have had a chance to compare

The sound I am now getting on vinyl is extremely pleasing , still working on digital side

Do you experience a variation in the gain of the amplifier when you change the tube type? I found that the 6922 trans-conductance is almost three times higher than that of the 6n1p. Besides the 6n1p needs 600 mA current for the filament, compared with the 6922 300 mA.
 
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awsmone

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Your absolutely right I noticed a big change in gain between the three trying to quantify that this might be main reason I am finding 6922 so appealing also cuts down on clipping issues
 

awsmone

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Much like JA I found the lower bias setting better for electrostatics
The low bias seems to enhance the midrange more and the high bias the bass panel and midbass and obviously has more power
 

microstrip

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Your absolutely right I noticed a big change in gain between the three trying to quantify that this might be main reason I am finding 6922 so appealing also cuts down on clipping issues

Thanks - just one detail. If I looked correctly, there is no 6n1p23 but the 6n1p and a 6n23 type, that is a direct replacement of the 6922. What are you exactly referring to?
 

awsmone

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Apologies for my typos

Am referring to 6n1p, which is not nearly equivalent to 6922, and 6n23pEV which is close though not identical to 6922 type tubes

Here is a deciphering of the Russian B7EFE941-29BA-448E-A534-9CB98D34BAE1.jpeg

And differences of 6n1p to 6922 24A8D047-FF4A-4321-A95F-6F717667D51D.jpg

Hope that helps

The two I have used

An older 6n23p

And now a newer 6n23pEV
 

microstrip

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Apologies for my typos

Am referring to 6n1p, which is not nearly equivalent to 6922, and 6n23pEV which is close though not identical to 6922 type tubes

Here is a deciphering of the Russian

And differences of 6n1p to 6922
Hope that helps

The two I have used

An older 6n23p

And now a newer 6n23pEV

Thanks. So we can conclude that the 6n1p is safe to be used on the Lamm ML2.1?
 

awsmone

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Thanks. So we can conclude that the 6n1p is safe to be used on the Lamm ML2.1?

I am not sure about the ML2.1 my only experience is with the M1.2, and previously the M2.2

These are the tubes I have now tried

6922 ElectoharmonixEH
6922 sovtek
6n23pEB Voskod single wire
6n23pEB Reflector
6n23pEB Sovtek
6922 Golden Lion Russian appears to be a copy of 6n23pEB Reflector
6922 Telefunken
6n1p Voskhod

As to the 6n1p:- please note the following

The 6N1P has similar ratings to the 6DJ8 and in the past was sometimes rebranded as such, however differences between the two types (the 6N1P requires almost twice the filament current and has only one third the S value) mean they are not directly interchangeable. The S is about 4.35 ma/V, the 6DJ8/ECC88 has a S of 12.5 ma/V and a gain of 33 and a lower internal resistance. However, the 6N1P is typically more linear for a given load. It is therefore inaccurate to say that these two tubes are identical.

It definitely works in the m1.2, and in a dac I have that uses 6922, and in a valve amp that requires 6922

However my understanding is the 6n1p equivalent is not a 6922 but a 6BQ7A, as a tube it’s very linear, with low noise and distortion.

I cannot comment on its desirability or comparability in the Lamm ml2.1 I would check with Vladimir who would know this better than I ever will
 

awsmone

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I have some initial findings on these tubes

6922 ElectoharmonixEH. Solid tube, nothing special
6922 sovtek. Very good tube, excellent bass, and midrange, high frequency a little forward
6n23pEB Voskhod single wire extremely good tube, fleshy midrange, Great timbre, brilliant bass, sound staging and layering
6n23pEB Reflector. Very good tube, bass, midrange, little peaky highs and very good soundstage
6n23pEB Sovtek
6922 Golden Lion Russian appears to be a copy of 6n23pEB Reflector essentially same as Reflector above
6922 Telefunken. Slightly betters Voskhod, wonderful timbral purity and accuracy, with woody overtones, Great dynamics and soundstage, and brilliant recording spooky good, with great transparency despite ‘meat on the bones’ tonality. Less sins in treble compared with Reflector types
6n1p Voskhod Surpringly excellent though different from 6922/6n23pEB variants. Despite feeling of difference in gain, was not found. Incredible transparency top to bottom, and nuance, apparent low distortion, and air around instruments, and layering best of any. Compared with Telefunken, slightly lacking in fleshy tonality, and last word in timbral richness. It’s like microphone feed in comparison, and if you hadn’t heard the. Telefunken, or had a richer speaker than the CLX could be heavenly, accentuate the presence region but not woodwind harmonics compared with Telefunken

All these were tested on low bias setting of M1.2 and previously M2.2

I did try High bias, which was very dynamic, more earthy sound, without the 3D effect and slightly flatter feel, though impressive on its own, and great front to back depth and order, basically not as organic, on hot recording was a pleasant change.
 

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