power conditioner

microstrip

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Bad? No. Sub-optimum? Yes.

I am referring to instantaneous current draws at a level of time domain resolution well beyond the kind of measurement you refer too when you say a few watts. And yes there are those of us who are naive enough to think it makes a difference. My Soulution amps are 125 watts but have instantaneous power over 5000 watts with maximum current of 45 amps. And before you say it, its not just about the amps storage capacitance but also about the available instantaneous power available from the external power lines to keep that storage capacitance charged and recharged during complex passages at high volumes.

Nice that you dropped the slew rate and rise time. Can you put some numbers in the timing of this "instantaneous power"? The manufacturer of your speakers states that their impedance is always over 5 ohms - in order to get the 45 amps you must have 225V peaks! But yes, if you listen very loud with inefficient speakers to electronics or rock music things can change a lot - the dB scale is logarithmic and power needs increase fast with level.

BTW, not all power regenerators are created the same - surely some have poor transformers that limit their performance. And some have critical problems of stability and synchronization to mains.
 

Folsom

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Well yes of course size without an engineering purpose would be silly. Sorry if I misunderstood.



http://www.toruspower.com/na-wall-mount/

WM 75 BAL AVR

Ahhh, the AVR title is misleading under product selection, as it is only on the "AVR" series which isn't wall mount, but if you click on wall mount you get the AVR wall mount units...

I'm looking at the manual. It's different than some others. I would make a bit larger of a unit for it to get it all in. The benefits may be more than on an Equi=tech, actually. Do the breakers have allotment for extra wires, like a typical house breaker does? (on either side of them) It matter for the difference between solid core vs. stranded, so you can smash the stranded down if it must share.
 

Folsom

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Here is a challenge for everyone, what is the most consistent clear sign of a loss of optimal current? And I do mean across the board, on any music.
 

Empirical Audio

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Here is a challenge for everyone, what is the most consistent clear sign of a loss of optimal current? And I do mean across the board, on any music.

That one's easy, loss in dynamics. It's usually caused by substandard power delivery inside the component to the active devices, but can also be caused by impeding of transient current flow in the AC due to inductance, resistance and other mechanisms.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Mike Lavigne

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Here is a challenge for everyone, what is the most consistent clear sign of a loss of optimal current? And I do mean across the board, on any music.

stage scale, width, height and ease.

when I insert a modest powered tube amp in my system it's the scale which immediately changes that jumps out. same thing as lowered current. the leverage of the amp on the speaker is lowered.

amp headroom, or lack thereof, is musically significant.
 

Pb Blimp

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That one's easy, loss in dynamics. It's usually caused by substandard power delivery inside the component to the active devices, but can also be caused by impeding of transient current flow in the AC due to inductance, resistance and other mechanisms.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

stage scale, width, height and ease.

when I insert a modest powered tube amp in my system it's the scale which immediately changes that jumps out. same thing as lowered current. the leverage of the amp on the speaker is lowered.

amp headroom, or lack thereof, is musically significant.

I would agree with both of these comments. (Yes Steve I actually agree with you. :) ) Also, I think as Mike said it seems like distortion occurs at a lower db level as volume is increased.
 

Pb Blimp

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Nice that you dropped the slew rate and rise time. Can you put some numbers in the timing of this "instantaneous power"? The manufacturer of your speakers states that their impedance is always over 5 ohms - in order to get the 45 amps you must have 225V peaks! But yes, if you listen very loud with inefficient speakers to electronics or rock music things can change a lot - the dB scale is logarithmic and power needs increase fast with level.

BTW, not all power regenerators are created the same - surely some have poor transformers that limit their performance. And some have critical problems of stability and synchronization to mains.

Sorry, those numbers are Soulutions specs for the amps, not what I have measured.

https://soulution-audio.com/series5/soulution-501-mono-amplifier/

I would think with my Raidho's pulse voltage from my Solutions would be more in the 60v to 100v range given the 5000 watt peak limitation of the amp with 5 ohms limiting instantaneous current to about 15 to 20 amps. (This is just math, not measured.)

Stable regenerators work fine for sources as long as the current limitations are understood. My focus was recommending more of a comprehensive approach for the system per the first line in my post #22 to Jeffy.
 

Atmasphere

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I can't argue with that other than to recommend an oversized isolation transformer (75 amps or more) on the other side of the wall with massive capacitance-storage and nil output impedance. Throw in NBT and Voltage Regulation and that dog hunts.

You might want to look at my previous post regarding the Elgar.

Our amps run fine on that conditioner, but so far that's the only one where that is predictably the case, although some people have had good luck with our smaller amps and the PS Audio regenerators.
 

microstrip

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IMHO all this debate is ignoring the main variable - the characteristics of the mains we have in our systems and our particular systems. If some one has extremely poor mains quality - high distortion, unstable or very low voltage - probably he will notice an improvement with a good re-generator. Some equipment is relatively insensitive to mains quality other is extremely sensitive. Again, each case is a different case, IMHO dogmatic rules have no place in this thread - we only share experiences freely, expecting readers to analyze them. Surely audiophiles love to impose their preferred solutions on other audiophiles - but just for their own good, we all know about it since long! :)

How many of us have had their mains properly analyzed?
 

bonzo75

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How do you properly analyze mains? I checked for voltage fluctuation and goes from 237 - 253 v, though not in jumps
 

microstrip

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Pb Blimp

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IMHO all this debate is ignoring the main variable - the characteristics of the mains we have in our systems and our particular systems. If some one has extremely poor mains quality - high distortion, unstable or very low voltage - probably he will notice an improvement with a good re-generator. Some equipment is relatively insensitive to mains quality other is extremely sensitive. Again, each case is a different case, IMHO dogmatic rules have no place in this thread - we only share experiences freely, expecting readers to analyze them. Surely audiophiles love to impose their preferred solutions on other audiophiles - but just for their own good, we all know about it since long! :)

How many of us have had their mains properly analyzed?

I don't entirely disagree with this but we also need to remember that mains performance is not static either in the short (hours) or long (days, weeks, years) run and our purpose IMO should be in weighing engineering best practices for system performance across a multitude of outcomes and combinations. It's not possible to address all permutations but that is not a good arguement to abandon pursuit of optimization to the extent possible. (Mind you I am not saying you were proposing such, I am just clarifying my point.)

I have zero allegiance to Torus or Furutech. I simply believe a power system's foundation for the best performance across a broad range of outcomes starts with isolation from the mains, a large amount of instantaneous current, voltage regulation, component isolation, and star grounding.

Certainly other approaches can accomplish a very good outcome as well. I am recommending this because it has worked well for me, but I certainly do not want to impose anything on Jeffy for my own good.
 

Folsom

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IMHO all this debate is ignoring the main variable - the characteristics of the mains we have in our systems and our particular systems. If some one has extremely poor mains quality - high distortion, unstable or very low voltage - probably he will notice an improvement with a good re-generator. Some equipment is relatively insensitive to mains quality other is extremely sensitive. Again, each case is a different case, IMHO dogmatic rules have no place in this thread - we only share experiences freely, expecting readers to analyze them. Surely audiophiles love to impose their preferred solutions on other audiophiles - but just for their own good, we all know about it since long! :)

How many of us have had their mains properly analyzed?

There is no such thing as "clean" mains. There are much dirtier ones that fluctuate a lot. (a few volts means nothing to good gear, they can also have BAD power factor)

The biggest problems come from having stuff plugged in, including the stereo. You want to mitigate their effects as much as possible. That's why I developed the Lillies, to help the recovery of the AC system so it can maintain a good complex impedance. (recovery is happening a great many times a second with them) And that is also why I make filtration that goes both ways, instead of pretending like putting it all on one side of a transformer is magically going to fix everything. And then knowing that is why I developed Lillies for the secondary side of transformers, to help with what the transformer prevents from Lillies on the primary side from doing to the secondary side... It's a big complex bag. You're only answer off of it is to use batteries or super-capacitors (in the gear, not inverters like from solar, gear specific), but even those are no guarantee because the equipment still needs to be good and have filtration inside of itself for the problems it makes within itself. Also I prefer the sound of AC mains, while more complicated and more expensive, they have more gusto in the right ways.

There is no reason to have them analyzed. It would take $100,000 worth of equipment to do it correctly, maybe more. And the results wouldn't help you do anything you were not already going to do. You need someone that has an actual conceptual idea of what's going on. Folsom has been working on that for awhile and considers ourselves a more mature entity when it comes to AC mains, than anyone else out there. That is why I'll straight up tell you that good power isn't for everyone, and try to assess whether it's what you want. I actually recommend things I consider to be "bad engineering" to people if they'll help them meet their goals.
 

Folsom

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That one's easy, loss in dynamics. It's usually caused by substandard power delivery inside the component to the active devices, but can also be caused by impeding of transient current flow in the AC due to inductance, resistance and other mechanisms.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio


Actually, no. I sort of laid a trap. I knew people would say "DYNAMICS!" But even while that can be true, it isn't what you're going to get to first. The amount of capacitance in the gear is enough to keep up with most loud notes fairly well. At least in an SPL sense. You'd have to be very familiar with the music pieces, and even then with the average audio memory it can be a stretch to really know where the dynamics are at.

People often don't know/realize that breakers while rated at say 15A can give instantaneous amount for burps that are way over 15A. What actually triggers them isn't the amount of current, but how long an excess of current is being used. That's why turn on for massive amplifiers can trip them, but playing won't. The caps charging takes too long, so they trip. When playing they could exceed the ampere amount from turn on, but only for a short moment. (that doesn't mean they do)

It's all kind of funny because what we perceive as dynamics don't necessarily align with SPL readings. And I'm not talking about woofer burps or other stuff, I mean in music. Phase, feedback, and many variables can make dynamics sound loud or small with similar SPL. It's because cues are there in the music for the fundamental, that let us know when something is loud. Frankly we don't even usually know by ear when crest factor is really tested. I have one of the loudest crest factor albums ever made, and unless someone told you, you'd never know the particular sound that is going to drive the most power.

Back to a lack of current... The most evident and clear thing that happens first is the high frequencies sound softened, even muted. You may not experience any other changes until you really lose a lot more. I know, it sounds odd but this is what shows up first when your gear can't get enough current. If you think about it, the high frequencies are occurring much faster so they are more dependent on available supply, say, from the transformer. Where as the big notes have moments between them so the capacitors can actually work with them, and recharge. This is something I've worked with by changing 1 variable at a time, instead of swapping entire pieces of gear.


stage scale, width, height and ease.

when I insert a modest powered tube amp in my system it's the scale which immediately changes that jumps out. same thing as lowered current. the leverage of the amp on the speaker is lowered.

amp headroom, or lack thereof, is musically significant.


Now this is an answer with some experience. Mike isn't just assuming it's dynamics, he actually knows that all these things sound different. Now whether or not it's because of current when comparing amps, I would not specifically assume that. It's tough when comparing totally different amps, to know exactly what all the factors are. The important thing here is that Mike can tell us what he hears, and not what he would assume for at least the changes in sonic qualities. For the most part, knowing what I do about design of amps, I'd say the DartZeels are simply a different breed than the smaller tube amps, irrespective to current.

When it comes to headroom it can be a function of voltage, as you many simply run out of ability to match the gain requested. Voltage = volume potential in watts. The current can dump into something at massive amounts but if the voltage in an amp isn't high enough then the actual SPL will never increase. And then it sounds flat when it shouldn't. (the DartZeels have plenty of voltage)
 

Argonaut

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@Fosom, I would be interested in your considerations with regard to Ballanced Power between wall mains and system.
 

microstrip

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(...) There is no reason to have them analyzed. It would take $100,000 worth of equipment to do it correctly, maybe more. And the results wouldn't help you do anything you were not already going to do. You need someone that has an actual conceptual idea of what's going on. Folsom has been working on that for awhile and considers ourselves a more mature entity when it comes to AC mains, than anyone else out there. That is why I'll straight up tell you that good power isn't for everyone, and try to assess whether it's what you want. I actually recommend things I consider to be "bad engineering" to people if they'll help them meet their goals.

Well, I know since long it is useless to try debating mains or anything else with someone who needs to hide his technical reasons in order to protect the intellectual property by secrecy. So I will only disagree with you - I am not an expert, but I have helped people who after diagnosing their mains managed to improve significantly the sound quality of their system, either with the help of the electricity company, improving their lines, making changes in the house mains distribution or using power correction devices.

And no, we do not need $100,000 worth of equipment to diagnose mains.
 

Folsom

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Well, I know since long it is useless to try debating mains or anything else with someone who needs to hide his technical reasons in order to protect the intellectual property by secrecy. So I will only disagree with you - I am not an expert, but I have helped people who after diagnosing their mains managed to improve significantly the sound quality of their system, either with the help of the electricity company, improving their lines, making changes in the house mains distribution or using power correction devices.

And no, we do not need $100,000 worth of equipment to diagnose mains.

Then what you're discussing is problems that are from the power company. That would be the type of things that could be checked with a multimeter. It isn't really "analyzing" it's more like seeing if your car's electrical system is at 9v instead of 12v. It is like seeing if your circuit is shared, etc. These aren't "analyzing" things, you just look and see. Most of them will be errors by idiots that think it's smart to put a living room on the same breaker as a bathroom etc.

When I said analyze I meant using spectrum analyzers synced and recorded through the whole abode, to which then you'd have to make up some software to compare them all and look at what is really going on. It's hella complicated and not needed. And then be able to merge it with information on PF, derating from transformer, etc.
 

Empirical Audio

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I would agree with both of these comments. (Yes Steve I actually agree with you. :) ) Also, I think as Mike said it seems like distortion occurs at a lower db level as volume is increased.

You are mostly right on the volume thing, with one exception. If the volume is controlled by adjusting the D/A reference voltage, then the distortion is actually reduced at lower volumes. This is what I do in my DAC.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

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Actually, no. I sort of laid a trap. I knew people would say "DYNAMICS!" But even while that can be true, it isn't what you're going to get to first. The amount of capacitance in the gear is enough to keep up with most loud notes fairly well. At least in an SPL sense. You'd have to be very familiar with the music pieces, and even then with the average audio memory it can be a stretch to really know where the dynamics are at.

People often don't know/realize that breakers while rated at say 15A can give instantaneous amount for burps that are way over 15A. What actually triggers them isn't the amount of current, but how long an excess of current is being used. That's why turn on for massive amplifiers can trip them, but playing won't. The caps charging takes too long, so they trip. When playing they could exceed the ampere amount from turn on, but only for a short moment. (that doesn't mean they do)

It's all kind of funny because what we perceive as dynamics don't necessarily align with SPL readings. And I'm not talking about woofer burps or other stuff, I mean in music. Phase, feedback, and many variables can make dynamics sound loud or small with similar SPL. It's because cues are there in the music for the fundamental, that let us know when something is loud. Frankly we don't even usually know by ear when crest factor is really tested. I have one of the loudest crest factor albums ever made, and unless someone told you, you'd never know the particular sound that is going to drive the most power.

Back to a lack of current... The most evident and clear thing that happens first is the high frequencies sound softened, even muted. You may not experience any other changes until you really lose a lot more. I know, it sounds odd but this is what shows up first when your gear can't get enough current. If you think about it, the high frequencies are occurring much faster so they are more dependent on available supply, say, from the transformer. Where as the big notes have moments between them so the capacitors can actually work with them, and recharge. This is something I've worked with by changing 1 variable at a time, instead of swapping entire pieces of gear.

Dynamics includes high-frequency dynamics as well as low-frequency dynamics. It simply means that the current required is the current delivered to the active devices. If this is not satisfied, then droop in the voltage occurs and thus loss of dynamics.

The other thing I know from experience is that even the best capacitor banks and ultracaps etc., are not sufficient to deliver the dynamic current needed in most components, particularly amps. Even having lots of HF decoupling in close proximity is not good enough. How do I know this? Just change the power cord. If you hear a difference, then the on-board capacitance is insufficient to supply the dynamic current requested. In a perfect world, the cord would make no difference, but unfortunately caps are not perfect, they have non-zero internal impedance, and circuit boards and cabling have inductance.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

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