The end of the CD

microstrip · Feb 6, 2018

ddk said:
High end is niche and it seems to follow mostly it's own path and less the daily trends and a lot of what affects the mass market is of little consequence to our sector. Even if they stopped stamping CDs tomorrow there'll be still be an near endless supply out there for purchase so personally I don't see CD players/transports becoming obsolete anytime soon.(...)

Surely. People obsessed with measurements will tell us that our great sounding CD transports, such as the Metronome Calypso, DCS Vivaldi or your top CEC belt spinner have jitter over 100 ps while the DCS ethernet renderer measures less than 10 ps, but many of us will go on preferring the sound quality of our optical electro-mechanical CD spinners.

Although the sound quality of my computer audio is improving with several tweaks the sound of physical media - CD or SACD - still sounds considerably more "natural" than files played using the Roon ethernet server

spiritofmusic · Feb 6, 2018

I only have long term experience of the SGM and it sounds pretty natural to me, shadowing the best analog with its low noise floor and flow.
However I can fully understand why many feel their cdps/cd transports and dacs still beat streamers in a great number of cases.
I return from my SGM exposures, fire up my cdp, and certainly don’t feel it’s embarassed by the SOTA streamer.
It’s ironic that as cd was rubbing vinyl’s nose in the dirt in the 80s and 90s, lp aficionados proclaimed greater naturalness for analog sound.
And now cd proponents are doing the same versus streamers as silver discs are being trounced in the marketplace.

Uk Paul · Feb 6, 2018

Empirical Audio said:
You just listened to the wrong computer-driven gear. The latest Ethernet interfaces beat everything. The best CD transport is not even in the same league.

Here is the jitter from a typical transport:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0

Even the best transports need a lot of help. Many of the new transports are nothing more than computers with CDROM drives disguised as a transport. Why do you think manufacturers are doing this? Cost? No. It's because they perform better. Lower jitter.

If you must use a transport and spin CD's, at least put an end to the tweaks (treatments, pens, coatings, demagnetization etc..) and lower the jitter significantly. Get a good reclocker like the Synchro-Mesh and a reference BNC cable.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Good luck with that!

spiritofmusic · Feb 6, 2018

Of course if Tidal goes belly up, and there’s no guarantee it won’t (Jay Z can’t bale them out forever), are we going to say streaming via Spotify or I-Tunes beats cd as well?

asiufy · Feb 6, 2018

You can use a streamer/music server and never ever use Tidal, you know that?

Tidal is a plus, a way of discovering new music, or as bonzo described, a very unique way of experiencing new recordings before you commit to a purchase.

ddk · Feb 6, 2018

Empirical Audio said:
You just listened to the wrong computer-driven gear. The latest Ethernet interfaces beat everything. The best CD transport is not even in the same league.

Here is the jitter from a typical transport:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154408.0

Even the best transports need a lot of help. Many of the new transports are nothing more than computers with CDROM drives disguised as a transport. Why do you think manufacturers are doing this? Cost? No. It's because they perform better. Lower jitter.

If you must use a transport and spin CD's, at least put an end to the tweaks (treatments, pens, coatings, demagnetization etc..) and lower the jitter significantly. Get a good reclocker like the Synchro-Mesh and a reference BNC cable.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I can say the same thing to you Steve, you haven't heard a high end transport

!

Look at your own reply, with computer audio the latest is always the greatest, yesterday it was firewire and usb today it's ethernet! How about the routers, hubs & switches, which is the greatest latest? Cable, DSL or Satellite? Battery or AC? Which file format? Which interface? How many interfaces are there? Are all of them so great the no transport is in the same league? CAT 5? CAT 6? Audiophile Ethernet wires

? Which hard drives? Which PS? PCM, DSD, double DSD, etc., etc., etc., there's no end to this crap, so what is that latest greatest I've missed? Ethernet is only a connection type what's suddenly so different about the hardware or the software?

I'm curious about the lots of help you say best transports need, let's say a CEC TL-0. No one was talking about typical anything, how does a typical computer measure? Not that anyone knows what half those measurements mean in terms of sound. Best transports are plug & play, tweaksters tweak everything and anything it doesn't mean that it's needed.

microstrip said:
Surely. People obsessed with measurements will tell us that our great sounding CD transports, such as the Metronome Calypso, DCS Vivaldi or your top CEC belt spinner have jitter over 100 ps while the DCS ethernet renderer measures less than 10 ps, but many of us will go on preferring the sound quality of our optical electro-mechanical CD spinners.

Someone just did

!
david

ddk · Feb 6, 2018

KeithR said:
Why don't you expound upon what servers and digital interfaces you've tried in your system and others. Enquiring minds want to know...

I've been trying to up my digital for while now Keith, I remember most of the DACs but the computers and various interfaces were pretty forgettable and are forgotten, many were buggy and didn't even work. It's immaterial anyway most of those products expired as soon as they were conceptualized. I had a server on loan interfaced with "the" online provider of the moment for 12 days and it went through three firmware upgrades before it stopped working completely, so back to my iPad and free Pandora for background streaming.

david

Mike Lavigne · Feb 6, 2018

David will visit here in a couple of months, to deliver and set up my new toy.

maybe he might like my digital. or maybe.....not. my system might be too tweaked for him to get comfortable with it. I don't have a transport, we would need to rip any redbook references he has, or we can stream Tidal.

but in any case we can compare the AS-2000 with the 3012r to it directly, so maybe with that reference for him, that might give us a result.

ddk · Feb 6, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
David will visit here in a couple of months, to deliver and set up my new toy.

maybe he might like my digital. or maybe.....not. my system might be too tweaked for him to get comfortable with it. I don't have a transport, we would need to rip any redbook references he has, or we can stream Tidal.

but in any case we can compare the AS-2000 with the 3012r to it directly, so maybe with that reference for him, that might give us a result.

I own thousands of CDs of music that I really enjoy and continue buying more regularly, I know you have a great DAC Mike it’s the computer front ends which I find poor, maybe I should bring a transport over for you to try

?

david

Tango · Feb 6, 2018

ddk said:
I know you have a great DAC Mike it’s the computer front ends which I find poor, maybe I should bring a transport over for you to try ?

david

I think Mike already has MSB behind him

.

Tang

spiritofmusic · Feb 7, 2018

For me any decision to go with streaming has always been a series of conflicts.
My real clumsiness with, and lack of feel for, computers/tablets etc, versus the ease of finding music via an interface. My anatagonism that in a really expensive hobby, I in effect have to find funds for an additional source, versus the fact that Tidal in one fell swoop eliminates ongoing expense of album purchases.
My skepticism of the SQ provided by streaming, reinforced at so many demos and in so many reviews where fundamental operating issues arise continually, versus the fact I’ve heard digital via the SGM that has a lot in common with the best analog.
And my less than sympathetic attitude that a struggle over three decades to find a cdp I look forward to listening to every day now upturned by yet another digital upheaval, is tempered by the fact I know the world doesn’t ever stand still.
Finally, the fact I may be one of the few people who feels streaming devalues music (just see how up in arms musicians are as they get even less money per unit sale than in the “good” old days of physical discs), my absolute hate of the modern world re the death of record shops (and shops in general), versus the fact that no one else really gives a sh!t (happy to allow Amazon and EBay to destroy the old ways).
—
I await the replies that “you need to get with it, grandad” etc LOL.

XV-1 · Feb 7, 2018

Cd - perfect sound forever :d

BMCG · Feb 7, 2018

in a context in which my available time to listen is constrained by well you get it...everything else that needs attention.

I find streaming affords max time listening....

can appreciate the quality vs quantity argument for vinyl...and maybe a transport...

but my enjoyment is maxed by being able to use the time in chair focused on listening...

as opposed to the higher effort required to move vinyl or silver through their respective spinners...and I mean the entire find/purchase/clean/unwrap/insert/remove/repack cycle...

bonzo75 · Feb 7, 2018

Agreed, streaming is the best to spend most time listening and explore music.

spiritofmusic · Feb 7, 2018

BMCG, and how much time do you think is wasted by streaming consumers endlessly noodling on their IPads looking for music, testing snippets, looking again, cross referencing against other searches/reviews etc.
Blue58 who owns the SGM I listen to, and has been a digital concert since Day One, even he admits he wastes an awful lot of time “looking” for music, and testing searches.
And if you’re criticising the way things used to be done, you’ll get no sympathy here. I’m truly bitter as to how the shop based model of retail has died, hearing people moan that it took too much time to go and buy music, and everything else truly aggravates me.
Maybe we won’t be satisfied until in the middle of a busy street we order a coffee via Bluetooth, and a drone via Amazon Prime drops the cup into our hand. Or even pours it direct into our mouths.
I mean eliminating the whole: walk/enter shop/queue/order/card/PIN enter/wait for brew/pick up cup/leave shop/lift to mouth/open mouth/pour/swallow/throw cup into street.

bonzo75 · Feb 7, 2018

Looking for music and investigating different performances is worthwhile. Not time wasted.

spiritofmusic · Feb 7, 2018

Ked, no argument from me on exploring music via streaming.
But in a hobby where we want “What’s Best” re listening quality, get back to me.
If you’re purely saying use streaming as a tool to find the best version of Rites and then buy that lp, as you intimated before, I can see that. But tbh, YouTube can cover that function too.
If you’re saying it can be yr primary source to listen to, then Im going to need £30k to fund SGM/Dac8/my fave cables and two isolation platforms
How many s/h classical and jazz lps do you think that sum can buy, assuming I don’t fall for the really pricey stuff?

microstrip · Feb 7, 2018

The situation is much more complex than people seem to consider. Capture a 44.1/16 file from streaming, burn it in a good quality CD burner and play it in a good system using a top CD spinner. It can sound a lot better than played directly from the stream.

bonzo75 · Feb 7, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Ked, no argument from me on exploring music via streaming.
But in a hobby where we want “What’s Best” re listening quality, get back to me.
If you’re purely saying use streaming as a tool to find the best version of Rites and then buy that lp, as you intimated before, I can see that. But tbh, YouTube can cover that function too.
If you’re saying it can be yr primary source to listen to, then Im going to need £30k to fund SGM/Dac8/my fave cables and two isolation platforms
How many s/h classical and jazz lps do you think that sum can buy, assuming I don’t fall for the really pricey stuff?

Again I am not discussing what's best. That argument continues on the forum each week. I am talking about a good way of exploring music. No, if you had 30k you wouldn't be able to do it, because it is not possible to get all these performance easily, stick them, and play them back on vinyl one after the other. This is possible only through a streamer /dac. You are welcome to save on the cost with an innuendo Zen etc

spiritofmusic · Feb 7, 2018

So, if it’s not about quality, just choice and a “shop window”, why not settle on YouTube, or cheap PC solutions that provide that metallic, unwelcome taste?
Ked, you’re yourself not in the mainstream here recommending streaming as a way to find best recordings and then buy on vinyl.
If it’s just about finding stuff, I can do that right now on YT.

The end of the CD

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