Ikeda it-407 on a rx-5000

SMKL · Feb 5, 2018

I'm contemplating an early production Ikeda IT-407 for my RX-5000. I currently have a SAEC 506/30, Fidelity Research FR-64FX and Denon DA-308 mounted. Would like to tap on your experience with the early production Ikeda IT-407, in particular vis-a-vie the SAEC 506/30 and a Fidelity Research FR-66FX. Is there a large sonic difference between the tonearms?

The seller who happens to be an avid collector told me that the IT-407 is identical in design to the FR-66FX with the exception of the combinations of metals used. Sonically it sounds the same except that the IT-407 is a tad more dynamic. I now wonder if the IT-407 sounds closed to the shorter FR-64FX?

Am trying to evaluate if I will be deriving real value in terms of improvements to the sonic signature that I so desire. I run tubes through the entire chain from phono to amplification belting a lush full bodied sound that is not laggard and yet not too dynamic (like most modern equipment). I can't use the FR-66S as I can't mount my ZYX and perhaps only the Koetsu will match.

Thank you in advance.

SM

bonzo75 · Feb 5, 2018

I have heard zyx on FR 64s on two different systems, so why can't you mount it on the FR 66s.

PM Halcro (Forum id, not the amp manufacturer). He has the FR 66 and SAEC 8000. He had the zyx before. He might know, as will ddk

Halcro · Feb 5, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I have heard zyx on FR 64s on two different systems, so why can't you mount it on the FR 66s.

PM Halcro (Forum id, not the amp manufacturer). He has the FR 66 and SAEC 8000. He had the zyx before. He might know, as will ddk

I also am perplexed by hearing this statement.
As Bonzo mentioned.....I have the FR-66S and FR-64S and have mounted the ZYX UNIverse in both arms without any problems whatsoever.
I have also mounted the ZYX in my SAEC WE-8000/ST, again without difficulty.....

SMKL · Feb 6, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I have heard zyx on FR 64s on two different systems, so why can't you mount it on the FR 66s.

PM Halcro (Forum id, not the amp manufacturer). He has the FR 66 and SAEC 8000. He had the zyx before. He might know, as will ddk

I have written to ZYX previously and they told me that the FR-66S is too heavy for their the ZYX Ultimate Omega unless I ship it back to reduce the compliance.

SMKL · Feb 6, 2018

Hi Henry,

This is good news to me. Have a question, can I tap on your experience on the qualities of the FR66S, FR66FX and their shorter cousins the FR64S/FR64FX vie a vie the early production Ikeda IT-407? Thanks in advance

Halcro · Feb 6, 2018

SMKL said:
Hi Henry,

This is good news to me. Have a question, can I tap on your experience on the qualities of the FR66S, FR66FX and their shorter cousins the FR64S/FR64FX vie a vie the early production Ikeda IT-407? Thanks in advance

The FX Series arms differ to the S by being essentially aluminium arm tube rather than stainless steel.....as far as I understand it.
As such, they are lighter than the S Series with lower Effective Mass.
I have no direct personal experience of the FX Series arms but have friends who do and there is no-one I know of who rates these arms with their heavier iconic cousins.....
Users of the Ikeda IT-407 who I have known or heard from, similarly are somewhat equivocal about it.
No doubt there are critics of the FR-64S/66S tonearms......but the many devotees and continuing high retained value of these arms demonstrate some serious design quality.

Uk Paul · Feb 6, 2018

Hi Henry,
How would you rate the FR66 against the WE-8000?

Halcro · Feb 6, 2018

Uk Paul said:
Hi Henry,
How would you rate the FR66 against the WE-8000?

Hi Paul,
The WE-8000/ST is a very good arm....
It is not however, as universal as the FR-66S IMHO.
Every low-compliance LOMC cartridge I have mounted in the FR-66S has delivered its best.....
Surprisingly (for this highest EM arm).....every high-compliance MM/MI I have tried (over 40) has also delivered its best

This has made me a total sceptic regarding the conventional wisdom of the tonearm/cartridge Mass to Compliance relationship.....

The WE-8000/ST however, is not so happy with high-compliance MMs, sounding more comfortable with the heavier low-compliance MCs.

bonzo75 · Feb 6, 2018

I read a comment from you that the zyx was the best with the grandezza. How did the zyx compare on that with the FR?

Also do you through your friends have any comparisons with Schroeder or durand?

SMKL · Feb 6, 2018

Halcro said:
The FX Series arms differ to the S by being essentially aluminium arm tube rather than stainless steel.....as far as I understand it.
As such, they are lighter than the S Series with lower Effective Mass.
I have no direct personal experience of the FX Series arms but have friends who do and there is no-one I know of who rates these arms with their heavier iconic cousins.....
Users of the Ikeda IT-407 who I have known or heard from, similarly are somewhat equivocal about it.
No doubt there are critics of the FR-64S/66S tonearms......but the many devotees and continuing high retained value of these arms demonstrate some serious design quality.

Hi Henry,

Looks like the FR-66S is the way to go if I plan to mount either a ZYX Ultimate Omega or Koetsu Rosewood.

Cheers,

SM

Halcro · Feb 6, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I read a comment from you that the zyx was the best with the grandezza. How did the zyx compare on that with the FR?

Also do you through your friends have any comparisons with Schroeder or durand?

The FR-66S gave the UNIverse a depth, solidity and ‘soul’ which was merely hinted at with the Grandezza....so I replaced it with another FR-66S......

No experience with the Schroeder or Durand unfortunately.....but after the Grandezza 12” Ref, I wasn’t keen on revisiting wood tonearms....

Uk Paul · Feb 6, 2018

SMKL said:
Hi Henry,

Looks like the FR-66S is the way to go if I plan to mount either a ZYX Ultimate Omega or Koetsu Rosewood.

Cheers,

See Meng

SM,

If you look for my thread about the Melco 3560 in the turntables section, you will see the FR66S with Koetsu Onyx, which to me sounded very right.. The owner's are my friends who did have Koetsu rosewood too but preferred Onyx so sold rosewood. Hope this all helps you

Uk Paul · Feb 6, 2018

Halcro said:
Hi Paul,
The WE-8000/ST is a very good arm....
It is not however, as universal as the FR-66S IMHO.
Every low-compliance LOMC cartridge I have mounted in the FR-66S has delivered its best.....
Surprisingly (for this highest EM arm).....every high-compliance MM/MI I have tried (over 40) has also delivered its best
This has made me a total sceptic regarding the conventional wisdom of the tonearm/cartridge Mass to Compliance relationship.....

The WE-8000/ST however, is not so happy with high-compliance MMs, sounding more comfortable with the heavier low-compliance MCs.

Thank you Henry, agree on the compliance/mass relationship this way around but I would be sceptical of low mass arm and low compliance cart being a happy marriage..

When either a 66s or SAEC 8000 appear for sale of good vintage, the price is usually very high, probably amongst top tier for vintage arms..

SMKL · Feb 6, 2018

Uk Paul said:
SM,

If you look for my thread about the Melco 3560 in the turntables section, you will see the FR66S with Koetsu Onyx, which to me sounded very right.. The owner's are my friends who did have Koetsu rosewood too but preferred Onyx so sold rosewood. Hope this all helps you

Thanks Paul.

shakti · Feb 7, 2018

currently I am using:
- 2x FR 64s
- 1x FR 64fx
- 1x Ikeda 407, new chrome model
- 1x Ikeda 407, old matt version

on SX 8000 or RX 5000 or SX 1500

To compare apples wirh apples....
For FR and Ikeda the B60 VTA Lifter or the N60 weight or the type 10 Micro Seiki weight is a must.

If you read about sonic difference from FR66s to FR64s, very often this is just describing the difference with and without the additional weight on the tonearm base.

Many Ikeda arms are sold without B60, which means less contour and dynamics.

If all Arms run with the weight, FR64fx is softer than FR64s, if the Cart fits to both arms. I would prefer mostly FR64s.

The new chrome Ikeda 407 is similar to FR64fx, but better. FR64s has more punch, but 407 sounds very balanced, still I would prefer FR64s with Koetsu.

The old mat Ikeda 407 has a steel tube!!, which makes the arm more close to FR66s than to FR66fx.

This is currently my preferred arm, has the balance of 407 with the dynamic capability of 64s.

I did not had the chance to directly compare the old mat ikeda 407 and the FR66s, would be a very interesting comparison.

bonzo75 · Feb 7, 2018

Excellent analysis

SMKL · Feb 7, 2018

shakti said:
currently I am using:
- 2x FR 64s
- 1x FR 64fx
- 1x Ikeda 407, new chrome model
- 1x Ikeda 407, old matt version

on SX 8000 or RX 5000 or SX 1500

To compare apples wirh apples....
For FR and Ikeda the B60 VTA Lifter or the N60 weight or the type 10 Micro Seiki weight is a must.

If you read about sonic difference from FR66s to FR64s, very often this is just describing the difference with and without the additional weight on the tonearm base.

Many Ikeda arms are sold without B60, which means less contour and dynamics.

If all Arms run with the weight, FR64fx is softer than FR64s, if the Cart fits to both arms. I would prefer mostly FR64s.

The new chrome Ikeda 407 is similar to FR64fx, but better. FR64s has more punch, but 407 sounds very balanced, still I would prefer FR64s with Koetsu.

The old mat Ikeda 407 has a steel tube!!, which makes the arm more close to FR66s than to FR66fx.

This is currently my preferred arm, has the balance of 407 with the dynamic capability of 64s.

I did not had the chance to directly compare the old mat ikeda 407 and the FR66s, would be a very interesting comparison.

Wow. Great analysis. Just the feedback I was looking for. Interestingly the Ikeda It-407 I am looking at is the same early matt model that you have. However it doesn’t come with neither a VTA lifter nor stabiliser weight.

The FR64S is really grabbing my attention if you are telling me that the tonearm sounds the same as the FR-66S should the stabiliser weight be used. I will assume that the FR-66 will sound a bit more relaxed as do longer tonearms. The FR-66S costs about 5x the FR-64S and that makes the FR-64S tremendous value.

Any recommendations as to where I can get a good price for tonearms as well as VTA lifters and stabilisers?

shakti · Feb 7, 2018

the production time of FR66s was limited, so only a smaller volume compared to FR64s was produced. In conjunction with the very good performance the FR66s became a collectable, so the price level is very high.
The FR64s will not be on exact the same level, but very close by. Due to the higher volume and for not beeing a collectable, the price is very fair, but with a fast increasing trend.

There are two versions existing (as with the most FR and Ikeda arms) copper and silver wiring. Just decide to your personal preference. The difference of silver als copper wiring are well known and the sonic difference of the arms just follow the experience we have.

(my FR64s are copper and silver, so I can compare, no principle preference )

Sometimes the matt and old Ikeda 407 goes up to $6000 as well (if complete) so the matt version is not longer a bargain, mostly more expensive, than the newer chrome version.

as with all old tonearms, you can buy on your own risk online from private customers or with some confidence and warranty from a dealer, but with higher price.

The weights are difficult to get, if yes, for a very high price.

(Ikeda B60 VTA Lifter fits FR64s, retail price in Germany arround $3000)

juergen
ps
please try micro seiki ring 1 on your rx 5000, together with dereneville plattermat a dream

http://www.micro-seiki.nl/webshop-msdbnl/ring1.html

SMKL · Feb 7, 2018

shakti said:
the production time of FR66s was limited, so only a smaller volume compared to FR64s was produced. In conjunction with the very good performance the FR66s became a collectable, so the price level is very high.
The FR64s will not be on exact the same level, but very close by. Due to the higher volume and for not beeing a collectable, the price is very fair, but with a fast increasing trend.

There are two versions existing (as with the most FR and Ikeda arms) copper and silver wiring. Just decide to your personal preference. The difference of silver als copper wiring are well known and the sonic difference of the arms just follow the experience we have.

(my FR64s are copper and silver, so I can compare, no principle preference )

Sometimes the matt and old Ikeda 407 goes up to $6000 as well (if complete) so the matt version is not longer a bargain, mostly more expensive, than the newer chrome version.

as with all old tonearms, you can buy on your own risk online from private customers or with some confidence and warranty from a dealer, but with higher price.

The weights are difficult to get, if yes, for a very high price.

(Ikeda B60 VTA Lifter fits FR64s, retail price in Germany arround $3000)

juergen
ps
please try micro seiki ring 1 on your rx 5000, together with dereneville plattermat a dream

http://www.micro-seiki.nl/webshop-msdbnl/ring1.html

Thanks Juergen. I will snap up the matt IT-407 first as it’s mint and complete in a box.

BruceD · Feb 7, 2018

SMKL said:
Any recommendations as to where I can get a good price for tonearms as well as VTA lifters and stabilisers?

Try here

http://soundgate.net/productlist/list.html?transactionid=5e1ee66f0464342e523b43c81ef3ac6ded74f40a&mode=search&category_id=11&maker_id=1&name=&search=

BruceD

Ikeda it-407 on a rx-5000

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