Interconnect Recommendations for XP-15 -> XP-30?

KeithR

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Thanks Al, one more step towards taking over the world... or the cable industry, that's first. ;)

Here's a quote from AC wrt the new Icepower based amps Mivera Audio is offering. The cable is only a few inches long. I provided the wire, he has options for UPOCC copper or my silver/gold alloy wire.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=154910.msg1665041#msg1665041

I believe Ron needs a 50+ ft balanced run - are you willing to provide that to him to demo vs. Mogami?
 

DaveC

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I believe Ron needs a 50+ ft balanced run - are you willing to provide that to him to demo vs. Mogami?

Absolutely not. Most cable companies won't either, and this statement to me is simply trolling and trying to start an argument... No thanks, and have a great day! :)

But, it's possible to test and compare normal length cables. People do it all the time.
 

Ron Resnick

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Ron, I'd also add with your aspirations this makes no sense. I understand why you're doing it... because nobody knows much about cables and what a true reference should be. You have so much information and choice it simply causes paralysis.

. . .

Thank you for the concern, Dave. I don't love auditioning cables but I know they matter.

But the only reason I will start with Mogami is because unless I set the system up and run cables of some kind I really have no idea if I need 45' interconnects or 55' or 60' interconnects. When the time comes I simply need to get the system making sound so I can figure out where the amps go versus the speakers and how long is the run from the line stage to the amps, etc. Rather than use merely string to determine lengths I just want to wire the whole system up with something initially.
 

Ron Resnick

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I believe Ron needs a 50+ ft balanced run - are you willing to provide that to him to demo vs. Mogami?

Thank you for the suggestion, Keith!

But I really am starting with a much more fundamental problem. The length I need is something greater than 45' and something less than 65' -- and I really won't know until I begin to roll the bass towers around.
 

cjf

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Nov 19, 2012
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It is interesting to hear folks talking down on the Mogami cable and claiming that replacing it with "insert expensive cable here" is the better choice. Its important to point out that at least Mogami has the "Stones" to publish the specs and measurements of their cable. Using such data, if it were available from both parties, the laymen can then make a determination of why cable A may sound different than cable B and which one may be more true to the original intent.

We all know this will never happen with expensive brand X because they want you to believe that sweet sound your hearing is actually what the original artist intended but in reality its more likely just what the maker of fancy cable wants to believe the original event should have sounded like.

Like most here, I've tried many fancy cables and could buy any one of them I chose to but at some point one has to decide if buying a cable that's a known good for the rest of the real world who do this for a living is also good enough for yourself and your purposes. I think the biggest determining factor in that choice is length of run from point A to B. Only the most care free high rollers are willing to drop triple or quad digit per foot on a 25+ft balanced cable to serve the purpose to hear music.

At this point I will bow out gracefully to these folks and simply live in ignorant bliss with my Mogami's :eek:
 

DaveC

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It is interesting to hear folks talking down on the Mogami cable and claiming that replacing it with "insert expensive cable here" is the better choice. Its important to point out that at least Mogami has the "Stones" to publish the specs and measurements of their cable. Using such data, if it were available from both parties, the laymen can then make a determination of why cable A may sound different than cable B and which one may be more true to the original intent.

We all know this will never happen with expensive brand X because they want you to believe that sweet sound your hearing is actually what the original artist intended but in reality its more likely just what the maker of fancy cable wants to believe the original event should have sounded like.

Like most here, I've tried many fancy cables and could buy any one of them I chose to but at some point one has to decide if buying a cable that's a known good for the rest of the real world who do this for a living is also good enough for yourself and your purposes. I think the biggest determining factor in that choice is length of run from point A to B. Only the most care free high rollers are willing to drop triple or quad digit per foot on a 25+ft balanced cable to serve the purpose to hear music.

At this point I will bow out gracefully to these folks and simply live in ignorant bliss with my Mogami's :eek:

Good post and I appreciate the reasonable points, and believe I can address some of them.

On measurements, I have measured my cables and published the data but now choose not to do so because I don't believe people will draw accurate conclusions. I'm not sure it takes "stones", if you really wanted to know I think I have the info in a file somewhere, I can say the D4 RCA comes out to 73 ohm characteristic impedance and LCR is fairly balanced with C on the low side. But you can arrive at LCR numbers through a vast array of different geometries. For example, C isn't just C as far as the way it sounds, it depends heavily on the particular geometry of the IC cable. For example, C caused by a shield is far less desirable than C caused by the signal wire's relation to a ground wire in a twisted pair... and C from a counter-rotating spiral where the wires cross at angles instead of remaining parallel to one another is also different from a twisted pair in it's effect. LCR just does't take this into account.

That's just one factor in how a cable sounds and for most home applications it doesn't matter that much. The reason is the cable's total impedance is going to be low because it is relatively short, with some exceptions of course. For a shorter cable, like <15 ft or so for an IC cable, the composition of the conductor matters the most, followed by it's insulation, followed by the RCA plug's composition, then geometry, LCR and other things. Yes, it all matters and it's a little more complicated but this is very close to the way it is. A simple twisted pair of the best wire in the world will beat out a cable with inferior wire 99.999% of the time. That is why I have wire manufactured for my cables, it is the key and what makes my cables what they are.

On knowing what the original artist intended, that's impossible... but I do have a way to be able to determine which cable allows for the best resolution and most accurate tone and timbre. Resolution is pretty easy, female vocals and strings on a good recording, as well as soundstage quality make it easy to determine resolution. Tone and timbre is more subjective but comparisons are more meaningful when you've identified typical flaws and can hear them in the music. There are a myriad of different kinds of distortions added by cables but they are generally warm or harsh sounding. Mogami is warm sounding, which is my preference if you can't get a more neutral sound without harshness. A cheap silver cable is often harsh sounding. These distortions reduce resolution, mainly by truncating harmonic information, which makes tone and timbre less convincing in certain ways that are fairly easy to identify with practice. Of course it is true that a cable must be compared to something else, but it can be done in a systematic way that is repeatable, and progress can be made toward a cable with the most resolution and most realistic timbre.

Finally, it's totally ok if some folks don't care about cables and even prefer a soft sounding copper cable. I know some like an amorphous soundstage, don't want to hear flaws in recordings, are sensitive to certain frequencies, whatever. It's fine. For video, I like a large screen and nice picture so it looks like I might be a videophile but I'm not. I got a middle of the road set for 1/3rd the price of the top end model. I know the top end model is more accurate, has better shadow detail ,etc, and I don't care. I'm not spending the cash and in some ways the slightly exaggerated contrast looks better than the accurate version and you don't miss shadow detail you don't know is there. Am I "wrong"? No, of course not. At least, I don't think so... :)

EDIT: Also, it's best to avoid long runs of cable. If not, you'll pay both financially and possibly in performance. I tend to build longer cables differently than my standard cables and it's usually more expensive per ft to mitigate the loss of performance and reduce noise.
 

KeithR

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Absolutely not. Most cable companies won't either, and this statement to me is simply trolling and trying to start an argument... No thanks, and have a great day! :)

But, it's possible to test and compare normal length cables. People do it all the time.

Please, I'm not a troll Dave. But when you are talking 50'+ and $20k for an IC that many think doesn't make much of a difference in a fully balanced system (including several manufacturers), well...

and for the record, I just rewired my entire system with WyWires so I'm not exactly a cable skeptic.
 

Leif S

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Thank you for the concern, Dave. I don't love auditioning cables but I know they matter.

But the only reason I will start with Mogami is because unless I set the system up and run cables of some kind I really have no idea if I need 45' interconnects or 55' or 60' interconnects. When the time comes I simply need to get the system making sound so I can figure out where the amps go versus the speakers and how long is the run from the line stage to the amps, etc. Rather than use merely string to determine lengths I just want to wire the whole system up with something initially.

That is an excellent plan Ron. It will mostly give you the information you need for your final set up. But please keep in mind your final placement may change a little once you put the high quality cables in due to the expansion and depth to the sound stage that the Mogami's can't deliver. But it will definitely get you close enough for you to determine your final lengths. Fun Fun!

All the best
 

Ron Resnick

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Will do, Leif! :)

Thank you!
 

DaveC

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Please, I'm not a troll Dave. But when you are talking 50'+ and $20k for an IC that many think doesn't make much of a difference in a fully balanced system (including several manufacturers), well...

and for the record, I just rewired my entire system with WyWires so I'm not exactly a cable skeptic.

Well what?

Your question was loaded and confrontational. Who do you know that hand-builds cables and are able to supply a 50 ft run just for someone to test out? You already know the answer to that question so why put it to me like that? You may not be a troll but that is the definition of trolling. There's no need for it, it accomplishes absolutely nothing but creating negativity.

And then you talk about price and the fact some think balanced connections aren't audible. What's that about? More vague negativity to cast aspersions on those who sell cables? That is uncalled for and ridiculous. Then, inexplicably, you say you bought a new loom of high end cables. It makes no sense whatsoever except to further your trolling.

Maybe you should think about whether what you post is helpful, friendly, accomplishes anything, and is in-line with the rules of this forum, which specifically does not allow trolling. I can see through your BS and I will report your posts as trolling in the future. I refuse to be targeted and abused on this forum or any other.

I posted here in a sincere effort to help others, you? You posted in order to denigrate others.
 

KeithR

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Well what?

Your question was loaded and confrontational. Who do you know that hand-builds cables and are able to supply a 50 ft run just for someone to test out? You already know the answer to that question so why put it to me like that? You may not be a troll but that is the definition of trolling. There's no need for it, it accomplishes absolutely nothing but creating negativity.

And then you talk about price and the fact some think balanced connections aren't audible. What's that about? More vague negativity to cast aspersions on those who sell cables? That is uncalled for and ridiculous. Then, inexplicably, you say you bought a new loom of high end cables. It makes no sense whatsoever except to further your trolling.

Maybe you should think about whether what you post is helpful, friendly, accomplishes anything, and is in-line with the rules of this forum, which specifically does not allow trolling. I can see through your BS and I will report your posts as trolling in the future. I refuse to be targeted and abused on this forum or any other.

I posted here in a sincere effort to help others, you? You posted in order to denigrate others.

Dave, you are really taking things in out of context and I certainly don't need a lecture from you. I also don't have any opinion on your business, positive or negative. I had no idea that cable manufacturers wouldn't loan long lengths to people. I have had 5 meter cables sold to me with 60-day return privileges.

I expounded upon my position to this poster on another forum where he posed the exact same question. Ron and I have even talked about this in person as we are local friends. I'm not sure why you think I'm trolling.
 

DaveC

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Dave, you are really taking things in out of context and I certainly don't need a lecture from you. I also don't have any opinion on your business, positive or negative. I had no idea that cable manufacturers wouldn't loan long lengths to people. I have had 5 meter cables sold to me with 60-day return privileges.

I expounded upon my position to this poster on another forum where he posed the exact same question. Ron and I have even talked about this in person as we are local friends. I'm not sure why you think I'm trolling.

I didn't take anything out of context. The rest of your post makes no sense to me and what you posted previously speaks for its self. Im here genuinely trying to help, you're here casting vague accusations for no apparent reason in an attempt to get a response. That is the definition trolling, and is why I know youre trolling. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
 

AJR

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Feb 12, 2018
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I found this thread fascinating. I also found DaveC’s latest posts against KeithR to be ridiculously over-sensitive, over-aggressive and unpleasant. Chill bro.
 

Ron Resnick

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+1
 

DaveC

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Umm, yeah...

But when you are talking 50'+ and $20k for an IC that many think doesn't make much of a difference in a fully balanced system (including several manufacturers), well...


I agree my response was unpleasant. I find the above unpleasant too. What is that about? Maybe I am oversensitive but I have to deal with stuff like this on a daily basis. It wears you down and pretty soon I lose tolerance...

Also, the rules are the rules. Gently trolling is still trolling, it's a definition, and a fact.

Look, I apologize to those whose feeling I've hurt. I'm sorry. But it's also a slippery slope with rules being broken and because of what I've experience on forums in the past I feel like it needs to be stopped immediately.

So if you have something legitimate to say come out and say it. IMO cjf's post was an example of a well thought out post that shows respect for others. I took quite a bit of time to answer it, and I think I did so without over-reacting to it at all. The post above is incredibly unpleasant for me to find as a response to something I posted. I really hope that is understood and appreciated!

If you need further detail, this is what I do for a living. Not just that, it's a business I started and I believe in, and Keith just implied I sell products that do nothing better than Mogami for big $.
 

Ron Resnick

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Dave, Keith was asking largely on my behalf, as he knows I have to figure out this very long interconnect run. I promise you he was not trolling.
 

DaveC

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Dave, Keith was asking largely on my behalf, as he knows I have to figure out this very long interconnect run. I promise you he was not trolling.

I'm not sure how else you interpret the statement I quoted above, except for "Keith just implied I sell products that do nothing better than Mogami for big $."? What comes after Keith's statement? After the "well..." at the end? I think that's obvious but if I misunderstood please enlighten me.

IMO, what it implies is a personal attack and it's trolling. It's a definition, a fact and I'm kinda surprised it's disputed. If you want to dispute this please give me an alternate explanation for Keith's statement I'm just not seeing?
 

AJR

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To me he was begging the question which was implied. But that is not trolling. By your definition we are all skating on thin ice and will have to apologise for hurting feelings. Harden up. Not sure why I have locked onto this thread...
 

DaveC

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To me he was begging the question which was implied. But that is not trolling. By your definition we are all skating on thin ice and will have to apologise for hurting feelings. Harden up. Not sure why I have locked onto this thread...

IMO an implication is just the same as coming out and saying it. I do not think we are all skating on thin ice because I simply don't communicate that way and neither do most that post here, including Keith so I just don't get it.

But one thing I've learned is damned if you do and damned if you don't when things like this come up. If I don't say anything it will normalize the behavior and then I have to accept it. I can tell you right now that won't happen. I've gone through it several times before in other forums and I'm absolutely not going to allow it. It may seem like an overreaction but I can tell you from experience it's not the case.
 

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