How do you all feel when you return from a stellar demo?

spiritofmusic · Jan 31, 2018

I mention this because over the last four years I’ve been regularly attending listening sessions at Barry/Blue58, with his steadily evolving, and tbh exemplary SGM server/T&A Dac8/Java Triple Shot pre/home made 45 tube amps/AG Duos Omegas system, topped off w Sablon Reservas cbls.
This has been a masterclass of really synergistic components choice, excellent fit in his slightly small room, and movement twds an expressive and “listen thru” experience.
—
Then last week, I had the great priveledge of meeting Paul of Z Axis Audio and hearing his system.
A very different presentation, more measured, less extrovert, but on balance more neutral and even, but immersive none the less.
Again a great blend of components and maxxing performance via his own cables, racks and balanced power transformer.
—
And so I return to my system, loving a lot of what I have, but certainly musing on aspects of sound that these two guys have, seemingly well ahead of me.
The perils of hearing other setups.
I wonder how others feel as they return home from demos that are great across the board, maybe even superior?

ack · Jan 31, 2018

Quite simple: humbled and eager to get to work to address own shortcomings. By definition, there is always a better system than yours. The other related question is, what do you do about the narcissistic attitude some have, which prevents them from improving their systems; in some cases, some will simply try to find the one thing or two that their system might be better at, and intentionally dismiss the bigger picture - I consider these people, above all, deaf. Imagine an artist looking at a van Gogh and then proclaiming: "My yellows are better"

spiritofmusic · Jan 31, 2018

Ack, this is it in a nutshell. In the mid 00s I was close to going down the ML Prodigys route powered by MF KiloWatt monos. The move would have crippled me financially, but I’m sure I’d have been a very happy owner. This was on the back of a stellar demo (but ultimately flawed - which is why I didn’t go this way ultimately).
3 years later in 2008 on the basis of positive buzz on 6 Moons via Sjraen’s words, I auditioned Zu Definitions spkrs, and within 5 mins was convinced, and went down this route, a decade later still with them, generally very happy in many respects, having gone from Definitions 2s to 4s, Duelunds and Lundahls upgrades to the 4s. This then got me on the path of SETs, and so over the last 5 years I’ve been dedicated to a high efficiency/tubes signature.
And now I have a killer room acoustic and ultra clean power that has bought this signature to a new level of clarity, quiet and insight.
However, continued exposure to Barry’s horns/tubes has revealed shortcomings in the dynamic impact of my system, and that extra level of transparency.
And now listening to Paul’s modded ML Spires has revealed additional shortcomings here in my overall neutrality and overt system character.
And both show up some softness and lack of extra fine resolution/detail retrieval.
Now the deficit here is not massive, but it’s impossible not to notice.
But in reverse I am fully aware my system trumps both Paul’s and Barry’s in terms of mids bloom, tonal density and warmth.
With Barry especially, it’s been fascinating to hear his sound become less overtly warm and full, and more hard hitting, forward (in a good way), dynamic and differentiating/delicate/subtle.
Paul’s system just sounds more “correct” than mine.
—
In years gone by I’d be distracted/dismayed by much of this, now I’m more sanguine/philosophical - I respond emotionally to the Zu/SETs presentation, it has so much to offer in terms of pure musical involvement even though it’s less “hifi” than many other setups.
And the challenge I’ve decided after being strongly affected by the sound at Paul and Barry, is to strive for a bit more neutrality and transparency.
Via more gear isolation and possible bespoke star grounding.
Rather than looking to change spkrs or change source.

ack · Jan 31, 2018

The work that Paul has done on his Spires is AWE inspiring and totally fascinating. I've urged him before to document his mods here, but he's too humble

NorthStar · Jan 31, 2018

Emotionally and spaciously transported. Intense inner feeling of comfort. The ultimate being.

spiritofmusic · Jan 31, 2018

Ack, I can 100% vouch for yr sentiments re Paul’s Spires.
For me, it’s given me a certain aspiration to achieve at least a degree more neutrality and openness in my sound. Tough when you compare my slightly bloomy, dense, somewhat coloured, and not fully transparent sound, to his, that has the least overt system/gear character I’ve ever experienced in 35 years of being interested in hifi, and 22 years of actual system building.

spiritofmusic · Jan 31, 2018

Northstar, I have much of that.
Hence no panic on my part to tear down my system after constant exposure to exemplary rigs like Barry’s and new experiences like Paul’s.

microstrip · Jan 31, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
(...) Then last week, I had the great priveledge of meeting Paul of Z Axis Audio and hearing his system.
A very different presentation, more measured, less extrovert, but on balance more neutral and even, but immersive none the less.
Again a great blend of components and maxxing performance via his own cables, racks and balanced power transformer.
(...)

IMHO it would be great if you could illustrate these adjectives with some recordings and examples ...

ack · Jan 31, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Ack, I can 100% vouch for yr sentiments re Paul’s Spires.
For me, it’s given me a certain aspiration to achieve at least a degree more neutrality and openness in my sound. Tough when you compare my slightly bloomy, dense, somewhat coloured, and not fully transparent sound, to his, that has the least overt system/gear character I’ve ever experienced in 35 years of being interested in hifi, and 22 years of actual system building.

Work with Paul to at least rebuild your Zu crossover with better parts, and you may also be in awe with your system

NorthStar · Jan 31, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Northstar, I have much of that.
Hence no panic on my part to tear down my system after constant exposure to exemplary rigs like Barry’s and new experiences like Paul’s.

Marc, when feeling in total musical ecstasy, be it @ a live music concert [strike]heaven[/strike] event, @ a lover's home, or even @ home, it's like a force nobody can take away from you, ever.
All life's criticisms evaporate like dust inside a black hole. All is left is complete harmonious peace.
You own this moment, and this moment is in you forever. It's a unique feeling we all have uniquely in us.

That's my feeling. I cherish the most precious moments in life's ascent. It is the main essence of existence.
Living every second right after the next; in heart, in mind, in vision, in science, in silence, in meditation, in listening, in contemplating, observing, reading, travelling, feeling it deep deep down all around and inside you, strong and impregnable.

edorr · Jan 31, 2018

NorthStar said:
Marc, when feeling in total musical ecstasy, be it @ a live music concert [strike]heaven[/strike] event, @ a lover's home, or even @ home, it's like a force nobody can take away from you, ever.
All life's criticisms evaporate like dust inside a black hole. All is left is complete harmonious peace.
You own this moment, and this moment is in you forever. It's a unique feeling we all have uniquely in us.

That's my feeling. I cherish the most precious moments in life's ascent. It is the main essence of existence.
Living every second right after the next; in heart, in mind, in vision, in science, in silence, in meditation, in listening, in contemplating, observing, reading, travelling, feeling it deep deep down all around and inside you, strong and impregnable.

Are you 100% sure no mind altering substances were involved in engineering this experience?

NorthStar · Jan 31, 2018

I don't do drugs before midnight.

spiritofmusic · Feb 1, 2018

Ack, the Zus don’t have a traditional crossover, just low- and high-pass filters to subs and Radian tweeters. I’ve already maxxed these out w top Duelunds as recommended by Zu.
Similarly have upgraded the Hypex sub amps w Lundahl transformers.

DaveyF · Feb 1, 2018

Marc, an interesting thread. Like ack stated, the sound of systems is all relative. However, since all systems have failings...in regards to the sound of the real, whenever I hear one that bests mine, I want to understand why this is the case...and again like ack stated, see if there is anything that I can do to address that. However, keep in mind that no two systems are typically auditioned in the same room or setting. The room has such a high impact on the sound, that I believe whenever I have heard a truly awesome system, the room has contributed greatly to that.....and unfortunately here in SCalif, the room is the most expensive component, by far!!

spiritofmusic · Feb 1, 2018

Davey, I totally get that. The move to this new room has totally transformed my sound from strident to smooth and sweet.
However I am aware of things that are missing when I make these comparisons. Some I think I can address further, some are down to fundamental choices in gear.

Blue58 · Feb 1, 2018

“But in reverse I am fully aware my system trumps both Paul’s and Barry’s in terms of mids bloom, tonal density and warmth”

Cheers for the kind words Marc.

I think what may be happening in your system now is that you have increased the mids bloom, tonal density and warmth to make many of your lesser well recorded albums sound full. This may effect the transparency and dynamics overall, smoothing those leading edges and increasing odd harmonics.

When you listen to those recordings on my system they are often brittle, flat soundstage and just plain poorly recorded. When we play, if you let me ;-), some well recorded jazz or singer/songwriter material there is no lack of bloom or warmth.

So, it may be that you have engineered your system a little too far towards a certain sound and need to pull back towards a more truthful presentation. Remember, it also happened to me and my sound went to the very dark and deep side. That’s why we have audio buddies to be critical but supportive in our journeys to musical bliss.

Cheers

spiritofmusic · Feb 1, 2018

Hey Barry, that quote from me was probably a bit black and white.
One often has to exaggerate in forums to make a point, subtlety can be lost.
Yes, there is no shortage of bloom in yr system, esp on those good recordings.
I’m fully aware I’m guilty of chasing a certain presentation.

spiritofmusic · Feb 1, 2018

Francisco, you’ve often asked me for specifics. It’s hard to give them, I’m better describing generalities.
Ked has always had the opinion one should get out and listen live, and hear other systems, to gain proper perspective.
That’s what I’m doing.
Those systems that are worse than mine also to some extent resolve more, and are more neutral, but this shows as a sort of relentless detachment from the music.
Many horns and panels I’ve heard fit this description, as well as box spkrs.
So to hear horns and panels that resolve more, are more neutral, more transparent, but fully immersive and welcoming, to some extent is an object lesson in system building and room optimising.
Barry and Paul really have wrought something special in their respective rooms.
And have highlighted some performance gaps in my playback, and endless food for thought.
There’s no point mentioning specific recordings, the contrasts are consistent on anything I listen to.

microstrip · Feb 1, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Francisco, you’ve often asked me for specifics. It’s hard to give them, I’m better describing generalities.
Ked has always had the opinion one should get out and listen live, and hear other systems, to gain proper perspective.
That’s what I’m doing.
Those systems that are worse than mine also to some extent resolve more, and are more neutral, but this shows as a sort of relentless detachment from the music.
Many horns and panels I’ve heard fit this description, as well as box spkrs.
So to hear horns and panels that resolve more, are more neutral, more transparent, but fully immersive and welcoming, to some extent is an object lesson in system building and room optimising.
Barry and Paul really have wrought something special in their respective rooms.
And have highlighted some performance gaps in my playback, and endless food for thought.
There’s no point mentioning specific recordings, the contrasts are consistent on anything I listen to.

OK, in some aspects some systems are better than yours, in other aspects yours is better. Thanks, message now perfectly understood.

IMHO, unless we spend long times listening these other systems we risk being victims of the turkish saying "neighbour's chicken is a goose" mixed with our own audiophile self pride.

Also, I just wanted to know what type of recordings you were addressing.

bonzo75 · Feb 1, 2018

Sorry I don't understand Turkish. Is that a compliment or an insult to the neighbor's system?

How do you all feel when you return from a stellar demo?

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