For Jonathan, Ed, Acoustic Sounds, etc: why not consider MDS-36 or LPR90

jdcolombo

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
22
2
68
To the folks who make our wonderful master tape dubs:

Have you considered using MDS-36 or LPR-90?

Most classic vinyl like the RCA Living Stereo records were more than 30 minutes; often they were 40. My Reiner/CSO tapes from Acoustic Sounds are wonderful, but the Pines/Fountains and Scheherazade would both have fit on ONE reel of MDS-36 or LPR-90 vs. two of RMGI-900 or ATR Master. Not only would this allow me to enjoy the whole program without re-threading a tape, but it also just wastes less tape - both of my Pines/Fountains reels are about half full when the music ends!

In most classical concerts (whether chamber or full-on orchestra) or jazz sets, folks play for about 40 minutes before taking an intermission/break. A ton of late classical-period/romantic period works (symphonies, string quartets, other chamber music) run between 35-45 minutes, making them a more-or-less perfect fit for a 3600' reel at 15 ips. Yes, if you're going to do Beethoven's 9th, you'll need two reels. But the 9th tends to run around 70 minutes, so even two 2500' reels won't do it. But two 3600s would (ditto for Mahler).

I realize that the 1 mil tape is thinner and probably somewhat more prone to print-through (though I suspect this has more to do with recording level than anything else), but MDS-36 and LPR-90 I think both have the same oxide layer as their 1.5 mil counterparts and can record at essentially the same levels. I also realize that this is all about a "maximum quality" niche, and the "maximum quality" sort of calls for 1.5mil tape. But as a consumer, I wouldn't mind 1 mil when the program calls for it. Those of us buying this stuff have tape decks that aren't going to destroy a 1 mil tape, be they one of Gary's re-done TASCAM BR20s; a J-corder Technics, or a top-end Studer or ATR102. We will store them carefully and won't abuse them (I promise :)). I personally am willing to trade off a db or two of noise floor for more music on a single tape, particularly given that the formulations of modern tapes, even 1 mil, have vanishingly-low noise to begin with. And notice I'm not talking about making the original recording on 1 mil. I'm just talking about doing the dub to 1 mil.

So . . . how about it, folks? Would you consider doing it? I dream about Ed one day recording one of the Beethoven Rasumovsky quartets, or Shubert's Death and the Maiden (all of them between 40 and 45 minutes) and sending it to me on a single reel . . .

John C.
 
Jan 18, 2012
2,320
2,405
1,475
Drobak Norway
we´re some A80 guys here in Norway (and also A810s)
we´ve done some testing between the different tapes
of course machines were calibrated correctly
SM900 is the most neutral sounding
SM468 sound a little richer in the upper midrange registers
PER528 is charming but lack in resolution
LPR90 sounds somewhat less solid than SM900 and on complex material the LPR90 does not keep up with neither 468 nor SM900
so from a truth to the original persective the SM900 does the trick best
No, we´ve not tested 911

btw I guess "mechanics" come into play here as well....
 
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astrotoy

VIP/Donor
May 24, 2010
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SF Bay Area
Some of the 2 reel albums recorded by Tape Project, Ultra Tape, and Opus 3 are less than 35-36 minutes long. They comfortably will fit on one reel even though recorded on SM911, SM900 or SM468. For those albums (like the Linda Ronstadt TP album), I just spliced the two reels together and have the album on one reel, and have a nice spare reel. Of course, I kept the nice two reel box, so I didn't gain any shelf space.

I asked Paul Stubblebine about the issue of using the thinner LPR35 or LPR90, and he basically said the print through issue is a big enough concern that it wasn't worth the relatively small savings, given how much effort goes into the production of the tapes, and the extra work to set up a special run of the LPR tapes. If you bought an Ultra tape for $450 or $500 and could save, say $60, the difference in cost between 2 reels of SM911 and 1 reel of LPR35, but had a not insignificant chance of print through issues that you couldn't have fixed, would you do it?

Larry
 

astrotoy

VIP/Donor
May 24, 2010
1,547
1,017
1,715
SF Bay Area
we´re some A80 guys here in Norway (and also A810s)
we´ve done some testing between the different tapes
of course machines were calibrated correctly
SM900 is the most neutral sounding
SM468 sound a little richer in the upper midrange registers
PER528 is charming but lack in resolution
LPR90 sounds somewhat less solid than SM900 and on complex material the LPR90 does not keep up with neither 468 nor SM900
so from a truth to the original persective the SM900 does the trick best
No, we´ve not tested 911

btw I guess "mechanics" come into play here as well....

Thanks, Leif.

I have seen mastering people commenting on choosing SM468 or SM911 of SM900 depending on what kind of sound they want. Of course, there is the issue of those engineers who want to be able to record at a "hotter" level, especially in a live setting, where they choose SM900 since it gives them more headroom than the other tapes. IIRC, SM900 is the hottest, then SM911, then SM468. In my collection of safety masters which were all done in Germany or Holland on A80's - the 1/4" tapes were all SM911's. These come from the '80's. Not sure whether that preceeded the introduction of SM900.

Larry
 

jdcolombo

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2017
22
2
68
Some of the 2 reel albums recorded by Tape Project, Ultra Tape, and Opus 3 are less than 35-36 minutes long. They comfortably will fit on one reel even though recorded on SM911, SM900 or SM468. For those albums (like the Linda Ronstadt TP album), I just spliced the two reels together and have the album on one reel, and have a nice spare reel. Of course, I kept the nice two reel box, so I didn't gain any shelf space.

I asked Paul Stubblebine about the issue of using the thinner LPR35 or LPR90, and he basically said the print through issue is a big enough concern that it wasn't worth the relatively small savings, given how much effort goes into the production of the tapes, and the extra work to set up a special run of the LPR tapes. If you bought an Ultra tape for $450 or $500 and could save, say $60, the difference in cost between 2 reels of SM911 and 1 reel of LPR35, but had a not insignificant chance of print through issues that you couldn't have fixed, would you do it?

Larry

Hi Larry. No I wouldn't want to save $60 and risk the print through. But when I read the spec sheets on LPR90 vs., say, 900 it's true that while the headroom is reduced by 3db, the print-through spec is exactly the same - I think 57db. Now it's possible that this specification has no relationship to the real world (lots of specs are like that!).

However, I never thought about the possibility of simply SPLICING the two tapes together on a single reel. I could do this with my Pines/Fountains set, and maybe Scheherazade (will have to look at the timings on that one again). That would accomplish what I want pretty elegantly.

John
 
Jan 18, 2012
2,320
2,405
1,475
Drobak Norway
most of my safety masters are spliced and stored on 12" precision reels from Feinwerkstechnik/Tonbandspule
some even 12,5" Otari reels
 

Edward Pong

Industry Expert
Jun 24, 2013
386
195
348
Locust Hill, Ontario
My sense is even if they claim the print thru is the same on both those tapes, the SM900 records a higher magnetic flux, 395 nW/m vs 250, so there is more magnetic signal to print thru. Since I’m trying to record the best possible sound I want to use the best tape for this... best not to take a chance for a small cost benefit...

Ed
 
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That makes sense, Ed. I'm sponsored by RTM, so, I use it all. For my radio programs I prefer the 468. There's no need to overkill with the 911 or 900. I love the 911, though, but I have used a lot of LPR 35 and 90 too.
 

Skylab

Well-Known Member
May 14, 2016
153
85
115
Chicagoland

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