Sme 3012 R

gian60 · Aug 1, 2018

Hi David,
and if use an external crossover like pass XVR1,or ML LNC 2 or First Watt B4,i remember and cut sub at 40/50 HZ?,connect crossover to second out of the pre and cut sub at 40/50 hz?

Ron Resnick · Aug 1, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
Tang, I'm not getting this.
I heard Cessaro Gammas at Munich, and even w the subs on, they lacked full range down into the bass regions befitting a €350k pr of spkrs.

. . .

Marc, remember that the Cessaro designer hosting the room clearly and specifically told me that he turns the woofer level way down in Munich deliberately as a result of being told several years ago by people at that show that the system sounded boomy and overloaded with bass.

gian60 · Aug 1, 2018

Cesura are very good because has good driver like TAD 703 for tweeter

Tango · Aug 1, 2018

gian60 said:
Cesura are very good because has good driver like TAD 703 for tweeter

My Dear Gian. Your hand keeps shaking nonstop since you got a kiss and a few glasses of wine. It is Cessaro not Cesura.

Btw ddk also suggested me to use external x-over cut around the freq you said with same type of amp for my subs.

Tang

gian60 · Aug 1, 2018

Is computer or phone change word when I write

miniguy · Aug 1, 2018

This a re-post of a previous one today that was lost along with some of the replies during the switch to the secure site:

It would be very interesting to compare the 3012R with the recently introduced Jelco TK-850L static balance 12-inch tonearm ($1250 US retail) which also has knife-edge vertical bearing but steel on steel.
https://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/cn3/tk-850l.html

ddk · Aug 1, 2018

gian60 said:
Hi David,
and if use an external crossover like pass XVR1,or ML LNC 2 or First Watt B4,i remember and cut sub at 40/50 HZ?,connect crossover to second out of the pre and cut sub at 40/50 hz?

Hi Gian,

I believe with an external analog crossover and matching amps the subs can be repurposed and useable in a large enough room for proper placement but not as they are now nor in Tang’s current space; they’re really not needed either.

david

christoph · Aug 1, 2018

Tango said:
Off. May be subs are too much for my room. It is very room dependent and I was ignorant about bass. Now actually get better space and definition...zero smear.

Kind regards,
Tang

If you are not using the subs and they are still in your room, I would at least unhook them from the amps and shorten the plus and minus posts on the subs.

Folsom · Aug 1, 2018

miniguy said:
This a re-post of a previous one today that was lost along with some of the replies during the switch to the secure site:

It would be very interesting to compare the 3012R with the recently introduced Jelco TK-850L static balance 12-inch tonearm ($1250 US retail) which also has knife-edge vertical bearing but steel on steel.
https://www.jelco-ichikawa.co.jp/cn3/tk-850l.html

Ditto

NorthStar · Aug 1, 2018

Tango said:
Trust me Marc there are many things you would not believe I have done. My friends, you included, are probably thinking I have been brainwashed or hypnotized by ddk to hear things as is. He could be pushy...but with good intention. One thing he didn’t do was to talk me into hearing things like many so-called “experts” I met. He showed me the way. The rest is up to me. Not a word of pursuasion from him that this is the right sound. Like I said before I was ignorant about bass..(and actually a few other things.) My room cannot take these subs. I will keep them for my dedicated room. Cessaro is one speaker most people in this forum have heard it sounded terrible. I can’t do anything with that. But have you ever heard ddk gave compliments to any modern time horns or in fact any speakers other than a few vintage? Like I said before the sound we were listening to was just the type that he and I kept looking at each other, smile and freakin laugh with joy.

I give you another clip I just recorded a few hours ago. Not bass heavy music but it sounds quite nice imo.

Tang

I saw your post earlier today; I really enjoyed your video...Sarah Vaughan and Clifford Brown sound fabulous in your rig, even from a YouTube music video.

https://youtu.be/pkn7w6aCUgQ

PeterA · Aug 2, 2018

rockitman said:
we are talking tone arms and yes, the 3012R was and still is the pinnacle for SME. You should try one out.

Were not the 3012r and model V sold concurrently in the mid 80’s? What did people think then? Did they choose the 3012r when price was not a factor? Did it have everything to do with the lightweight belt tables which were then popular? What did users of the big Micro tables prefer?

Did some SME engineers work on both designs? This whole discussion has me confused. Has anyone actually done a direct comparison? I am not aware of any outside of the SME factory. Is no AS2000 user even curious? Why not call SME? I did two weeks ago and asked for a drawing to build an external arm pod to use for a direct comparison. They did not understand why I would want to do that. They sent me the drawing anyway. They think the SME V-12 is much better though some might prefer the “sound” of the older arm.

One day I might do the project and find out for myself.

microstrip · Aug 2, 2018

PeterA said:
Were not the 3012r and model V sold concurrently in the mid 80’s? What did people think then? Did they choose the 3012r when price was not a factor? Did it have everything to do with the lightweight belt tables which were then popular? What did users of the big Micro tables prefer?

Did some SME engineers work on both designs? This whole discussion has me confused. Has anyone actually done a direct comparison? I am not aware of any outside of the SME factory. Is no AS2000 user even curious? Why not call SME? I did two weeks ago and asked for a drawing to build an external arm pod to use for a direct comparison. They did not understand why I would want to do that. They sent me the drawing anyway. They think the SME V-12 is much better though some might prefer the “sound” of the older arm.

One day I might do the project and find out for myself.

Peter, you seem to be suffering from audiophile anxiety ...

Remember that the crowds of people who own and love the SME V tonearms are not WBF members and the feedback you will get here is mostly from people who do not like the SME30 or its type of sound.

Just look how different is their perspective on sound reproduction from the classical SME perspective - they want to have the maximum of cartridges to have very different types of sound and enjoy the difference.

SME issued a tonearm with a fixed headshell, surely for people who are not listening to different cartridges daily ...

Most of the time in this hobby - and this is an hobby for must of us, except for the professionals who provide us with good and help - we can not agree with everyone and we can not have a foot in all the boats simultaneously.

Remember this a thread on the SME 3012 R - owners of SME V's will not get accolades here ... The same for Vivaldi owners who post in a Lampizator thread ...

ddk · Aug 2, 2018

PeterA said:
Were not the 3012r and model V sold concurrently in the mid 80’s? What did people think then? Did they choose the 3012r when price was not a factor? Did it have everything to do with the lightweight belt tables which were then popular? What did users of the big Micro tables prefer?

Did some SME engineers work on both designs? This whole discussion has me confused. Has anyone actually done a direct comparison? I am not aware of any outside of the SME factory. Is no AS2000 user even curious? Why not call SME? I did two weeks ago and asked for a drawing to build an external arm pod to use for a direct comparison. They did not understand why I would want to do that. They sent me the drawing anyway. They think the SME V-12 is much better though some might prefer the “sound” of the older arm.

One day I might do the project and find out for myself.

You should try it out for yourself Peter, it may answer your questions and you’re always welcome to fly out with your V12 and listen to both arms side by side if that’s what you need.

david

PeterA · Aug 2, 2018

microstrip said:
Peter, you seem to be suffering from audiophile anxiety ... Remember that the crowds of people who own and love the SME V tonearms are not WBF members and the feedback you will get here is mostly from people who do not like the SME30 or its type of sound.

Just look how different is their perspective on sound reproduction from the classical SME perspective - they want to have the maximum of cartridges to have very different types of sound and enjoy the difference.

SME issued a tonearm with a fixed headshell, surely for people who are not listening to different cartridges daily ...

Most of the time in this hobby - and this is an hobby for must of us, except for the professionals who provide us with good and help - we can not agree with everyone and we can not have a foot in all the boats simultaneously.

Remember this a thread on the SME 3012 R - owners of SME V's will not get accolades here ... The same for Vivaldi owners who post in a Lampizator thread ...

Yes. Very good observation except that the owners of 3012r have multiple arms and don’t adjust the 3012r because it is combersome. The V can have a removable head shell if one wants. And it is easier to adjust and is repeatable. The interesting fact remains that no one has done a direct comparison and written about it. I agree they must be very different arms for different buyers. I also agree that there are many SME owners who are not on forums because they are listening to music.

I have neurosis because I read too much WBF. Why is the used price for a V-12 higher than for a 3012r? Anyway, I understand if my many questions remain unanswered.

bonzo75 · Aug 2, 2018

Audiophiles by definition are neurotic.

PeterA · Aug 2, 2018

ddk said:
You should try it out for yourself Peter, it may answer your questions and you’re always welcome to fly out with your V12 and listen to both arms side by side if that’s what you need.

david

Thank you for the kind invitation David. I may take you up on it someday. I would also like to hear them side by side in my familiar system where I can do an extensive comparison over time.

ddk · Aug 2, 2018

microstrip said:
Peter, you seem to be suffering from audiophile anxiety ... Remember that the crowds of people who own and love the SME V tonearms are not WBF members and the feedback you will get here is mostly from people who do not like the SME30 or its type of sound.

Just look how different is their perspective on sound reproduction from the classical SME perspective - they want to have the maximum of cartridges to have very different types of sound and enjoy the difference.

SME issued a tonearm with a fixed headshell, surely for people who are not listening to different cartridges daily ...

Most of the time in this hobby - and this is an hobby for must of us, except for the professionals who provide us with good and help - we can not agree with everyone and we can not have a foot in all the boats simultaneously.

Remember this a thread on the SME 3012 R - owners of SME V's will not get accolades here ... The same for Vivaldi owners who post in a Lampizator thread ...

Not quite right Francisco, you forget that it all started with SPU, one can swap as many carts on fixed headshell arms just as easily. The advantage of 3012-r is its sound quality otherwise there are plenty of other to tonearms with removable headshells.

david

DaveyF · Aug 2, 2018

microstrip said:
Peter, you seem to be suffering from audiophile anxiety ... Remember that the crowds of people who own and love the SME V tonearms are not WBF members and the feedback you will get here is mostly from people who do not like the SME30 or its type of sound.

Just look how different is their perspective on sound reproduction from the classical SME perspective - they want to have the maximum of cartridges to have very different types of sound and enjoy the difference.

SME issued a tonearm with a fixed headshell, surely for people who are not listening to different cartridges daily ...

Most of the time in this hobby - and this is an hobby for must of us, except for the professionals who provide us with good and help - we can not agree with everyone and we can not have a foot in all the boats simultaneously.

Remember this a thread on the SME 3012 R - owners of SME V's will not get accolades here ... The same for Vivaldi owners who post in a Lampizator thread ...

The ability to change cartridges easily is not the reason most manufacturer's went away from the removable headshell. The reason is that the signal loss at the headshell junction to the arm was clearly heard by a'philes as their systems gained in resolution.
Add to that the increase in rigidity of the fixed headshell vs. the removable headshell and the result is that the removable headshell design became a thing of the past...
SME themselves were one of the first manufacturer's to go this route. ( and for VERY good reason, IMHO).

microstrip · Aug 2, 2018

ddk said:
You should try it out for yourself Peter, it may answer your questions and you’re always welcome to fly out with your V12 and listen to both arms side by side if that’s what you need.

david

You should win that one easily - as far as I have read, the SME 3012R matches perfectly your system and turntable - as well as it matches my EMT!

The real question for Peter is how the SME 3012R would play in his system - that in some sense is the opposite of yours. Only experience will give a proper answer.

PeterA · Aug 2, 2018

microstrip said:
You should win that one easily - as far as I have read, the SME 3012R matches perfectly your system and turntable - as well as it matches my EMT!

The real question for Peter is how the SME 3012R would play in his system - that in some sense is the opposite of yours. Only experience will give a proper answer.

The question is not so much which arm is better in David’s system. Perhaps not even in my system as I have an integrated solution. The real question for me is how these two arms compare in a general sense over a variety of systems and tastes. A full range and transparent system. We all know what David thinks. How would they compare in say Christian’s system or on an AF1 or Kronos using an Atlas or Opus. That for me is the question.

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