Tube Pre-Amps: Shindo, CJ ART 3, ARC Ref 5...advice!

LL21 · Jan 10, 2011

Hi All,

I currently run a CJ ACT 2 preamp and am looking for something that matches the transparency, clarity, macro-dynamics of my current pre...but delivers far greater purity of tonality, microdynamics.

To date, i have been recommended: Wavac PRT1, Kondo M7, CJ ART 3, ACT 2 Series 2 upgrade, ARC Ref 5 and Shindo Masseto, Vosne-Romanee or Giscours. I have heard only the Ref 5 so far. i respected the Ref 3 but never felt the need to switch from my ACT 2...the Ref 5 is a different (and more compelling option). It is difficult to hear these, but i will as soon as i can locate them.

Meanwhile, your thoughts are greatly appreciated! including on other pres i have not mentioned. (Rest of my system: Oppo Transport, Zanden DAC, Gryphon Antileon, Wilson X1/Grand Slamms, Velodyne DD-18 in parallel, Transp Ref IC/SC, PAD Dominus/Ann Contego & Sablon Audio PCs, Transp Ref Power Conditioner and Nordost QX4.)

On a minor note, does the 16db gain in the Shindo mean (relative to 21.5db gain in ACT 2) that my system will not go as loud? Or does the math not always translate into actual volume quite that way?

rblnr · Jan 10, 2011

I'm happy with my Ref 5. Not on your list and worth checking out is the Valvet Soulshine which I reviewed here:

http://positive-feedback.com/Issue48/valvet.htm

caesar · Jan 10, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Hi All,

I currently run a CJ ACT 2 preamp and am looking for something that matches the transparency, clarity, macro-dynamics of my current pre...but delivers far greater purity of tonality, microdynamics.

To date, i have been recommended: Wavac PRT1, Kondo M7, CJ ART 3, ACT 2 Series 2 upgrade, ARC Ref 5 and Shindo Masseto, Vosne-Romanee or Giscours. I have heard only the Ref 5 so far. i respected the Ref 3 but never felt the need to switch from my ACT 2...the Ref 5 is a different (and more compelling option). It is difficult to hear these, but i will as soon as i can locate them.

Meanwhile, your thoughts are greatly appreciated! including on other pres i have not mentioned. (Rest of my system: Oppo Transport, Zanden DAC, Gryphon Antileon, Wilson X1/Grand Slamms, Velodyne DD-18 in parallel, Transp Ref IC/SC, PAD Dominus/Ann Contego & Sablon Audio PCs, Transp Ref Power Conditioner and Nordost QX4.)

On a minor note, does the 16db gain in the Shindo mean (relative to 21.5db gain in ACT 2) that my system will not go as loud? Or does the math not always translate into actual volume quite that way?

I think you are pretty much at the mountain top with the CJ. Other preamps will be like scaling other mountains, IMO. If you are itching for a change, make sure you listen closely, as you will be pretty much making a lateral change. You may also want to add FM Acoustics to your audition list.

But, ultimately, is the pre-amp the weakest link in your chain?

jazdoc · Jan 10, 2011

I've auditioned several of the preamps on your list. At this performance level, your choice is more about system matching and individual taste. I can recommend the Experience Music preamp for audition...http://jeffreywjackson.com/The_Line_Stage.htm. The unit can be tailored to your needs.

Gregadd · Jan 10, 2011

Don't forget the Allnnic @10k. may be a bargain.

LL21 · Jan 10, 2011

Thanks all for the responses to date! Ceasar - i am not someone who upgrades for the sake of listening to alternative mountains. Since i have not had the benefit of hearing these other preamps...i cannot say and thus your insight is most appreciated. Given your last question...what would you think might be my weakest link? off hand...i know my transport (oppo) leaves a lot to be desired...i have held off spending bigger dollars there simply because of the quick changes in technology...hate to spend a lot on zanden/esoteric/other transport...to find out in 2015 i cannot find any CDs without difficulty. Plus, i am waiting until i can find a server (even with custom mods) where i am matching a Zanden transport.

other than this, would you have thoughts on my system? i am always open-minded to other people's opinions, even if i always keep my own counsel (as i think we all should since its our ears). thanks.

LL21 · Jan 10, 2011

Rblnr,

What if i may ask are you running with your Ref 5?

rblnr · Jan 10, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Rblnr,

What if i may ask are you running with your Ref 5?

ARC 210 monos into Scaena speakers.

LL21 · Jan 10, 2011

Nice...i have never heard the Scaena but am seriously intrigued. have read nothing but good things. tough to find here.

rblnr · Jan 10, 2011

I think they're really special. And absurd as it might seem (or is!), good values at 60K (or at least vs. a lot of other stuff out there). 24 top quality mids, 16 tweeters, 2 subs in a new, ridiculously robust design. Plus the 24 individual glass enclosures, etc.

LL21 · Jan 10, 2011

i am no speaker designer but i have seen a few full-on iterations of flagships using multiple drivers. IRS Infinitys from 20 years ago, The ML Statements (sort of), Hansen's latest flagship seems to have a good number of drivers though not as many as yours. If you had to describe what makes them special...what characteristics do you think they uniquely possess relative to other more "traditional" cone or electrostatic designs?

microstrip · Jan 10, 2011

What is the input impedance of your amplifiers and subwoofer? I see you are considering using a tube preamplifier with a load of a subwoofer in parallel with the amplifier - not an easy task for many preamplifiers with output capacitors.

BTW, if you liked the REF5 and like escalating, the ARC REF Anniversary is also at the top ...

KeithR · Jan 10, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Hi All,

I currently run a CJ ACT 2 preamp and am looking for something that matches the transparency, clarity, macro-dynamics of my current pre...but delivers far greater purity of tonality, microdynamics.

To date, i have been recommended: Wavac PRT1, Kondo M7, CJ ART 3, ACT 2 Series 2 upgrade, ARC Ref 5 and Shindo Masseto, Vosne-Romanee or Giscours. I have heard only the Ref 5 so far. i respected the Ref 3 but never felt the need to switch from my ACT 2...the Ref 5 is a different (and more compelling option). It is difficult to hear these, but i will as soon as i can locate them.

Meanwhile, your thoughts are greatly appreciated! including on other pres i have not mentioned. (Rest of my system: Oppo Transport, Zanden DAC, Gryphon Antileon, Wilson X1/Grand Slamms, Velodyne DD-18 in parallel, Transp Ref IC/SC, PAD Dominus/Ann Contego & Sablon Audio PCs, Transp Ref Power Conditioner and Nordost QX4.)

On a minor note, does the 16db gain in the Shindo mean (relative to 21.5db gain in ACT 2) that my system will not go as loud? Or does the math not always translate into actual volume quite that way?

I would own the Shindo if I could live without remote. And if you decide to go vinyl later, you are saving a ton of money as the phono stage is allegedly quite special.

It's lower gain will make volume control easier at lower levels---not a difference in loudness. Although 16db is considered still to be pretty high gain i believe.

LL21 · Jan 10, 2011

Hi Microstrip...nice to see you on this forum! I have read and enjoyed your many posts elsewhere. The Antileon is 20k ohms. I think the upper level Shindos are 600 ohms, so i am told i should be ok. i will try to find out with the Velodyne.

KeithR...thanks for your advice. i really am trying to find a place to hear them. i happen to be in vacation in Hong Kong in a few wks...and unfortunately they are totally sold out until after i leave! oh well...i may have found someone who has a Vosne-Romanne and Masetto. fingers crossed.

cjfrbw · Jan 10, 2011

The Allnic L 5000 is somewhat of an outlier by using the directly heated triodes, but it meets the requirements of your initial description. You should give one a listen if you have a chance.

MylesBAstor · Jan 10, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
Hi All,

I currently run a CJ ACT 2 preamp and am looking for something that matches the transparency, clarity, macro-dynamics of my current pre...but delivers far greater purity of tonality, microdynamics.

To date, i have been recommended: Wavac PRT1, Kondo M7, CJ ART 3, ACT 2 Series 2 upgrade, ARC Ref 5 and Shindo Masseto, Vosne-Romanee or Giscours. I have heard only the Ref 5 so far. i respected the Ref 3 but never felt the need to switch from my ACT 2...the Ref 5 is a different (and more compelling option). It is difficult to hear these, but i will as soon as i can locate them.

Meanwhile, your thoughts are greatly appreciated! including on other pres i have not mentioned. (Rest of my system: Oppo Transport, Zanden DAC, Gryphon Antileon, Wilson X1/Grand Slamms, Velodyne DD-18 in parallel, Transp Ref IC/SC, PAD Dominus/Ann Contego & Sablon Audio PCs, Transp Ref Power Conditioner and Nordost QX4.)

On a minor note, does the 16db gain in the Shindo mean (relative to 21.5db gain in ACT 2) that my system will not go as loud? Or does the math not always translate into actual volume quite that way?

Hi LLoyd!

As far a the cj goes, the GAT is far better than the ART series 3. If that's too much money, then maybe give consideration to the soon to be released GAT Jr. that will retail for around $9800. The ART is a very, very good preamp but the GAT is in another class. It's far more neutral, extended, resolving and transparent. One will be shocked to hear how the GAT resolves spatial information. OTOH, some might prefer the ART because it is a little more tubey. Now that's not to say that the GAT is thin; far from it. The GAT is just far less colored.

microstrip · Jan 10, 2011

lloydelee21 said:
The Antileon is 20k ohms. I think the upper level Shindos are 600 ohms, so i am told i should be ok. i will try to find out with the Velodyne.

Lloyd,
I could see you do not have the Stradivari anymore. The Wilson's are great speakers and conrad johnson has been one my favorites to drive them since Lew Johnson convinced me to get a pair of Wilson 5's long ago. I used a cj preamp with a solid state amplifier (Krell KSA300) and Transparent cables for some time.
One aspect that supports Myles advice is that the GAT has a solid state buffer and will match your Antileon and subwoofer perfectly. If you have tuned Transparent Audio ICs you should ask Transparent if they need to re-tuned.

flez007 · Jan 10, 2011

Hi again Lloyd!

I would not look any further than a Gryphon preamp and make use of the green-bias feature.

LL21 · Jan 11, 2011

Myles and Microstrip,

many thanks for that! i always enjoy getting the benefit of good ears who have listened to great components! Much as it would be fun to do...i cannot listen to everything. So i will focus on a chance to hear the GAT...when i am in Hong Kong in a couple of weeks, i will try to stop by Audio Exotics...maybe they have a few things to listen to including the GAT. I think, Myles, you are right...i probably would not mind a touch of tubey warmth. At the end of the day, i am in search of enjoying my music...not "my sound"...so if i can listen even longer and more to my music, that works for me. the level of accuracy and detail i'm fortunate to have at the moment is quite good already...the rest is personal taste.

As for impedances, that is a good point...and one i would not have considered before until reading about Shindo and its impedances. I will definitely give the GAT a run, Microstrip...it is bloody expensive though.
Flez007...thanks for your thoughts! You and Mihalis have both suggested Gryphon pres...i have heard great things about them. i think i should hear one, despite my initial instinct to stay with tubes. I have been a tube guy for so long, having just gotten the Antileon within the last 3 years, perhaps it is worth a go since my DAC is tubed.
Stay tuned! Anyone been to Audioexotics in Hong Kong before?

LL21 · Jan 11, 2011

Has anyone come across the Tron Syren tubed pre from the UK? Designed by Graham Tricker. Audio Exotics in HK carries them, so i may ask them as well. I saw a review on 6 moons, and seen a few comments here and there. Thanks for any feedback!

Tube Pre-Amps: Shindo, CJ ART 3, ARC Ref 5...advice!

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