211 valves: please share your experiences

Audiocrack · Jan 4, 2018

A while back I played with Audio Note/Kondo Gakuon amps. The Gakuon uses two 211 valves in parallel. At the time I only listened to the Gakuons with General Electric 211 tubes. Although I liked the Gakuons very much in the end I preferred the Kondo (300B) Gakuoh amps.

Lately I returned to my ‘211-love’ with the Kondo Kagura amps. These amps also employ two 211 tubes in parallel. So far I played the Kagura’s with their stock Kondo 211 valves as well as with a matched quod RCA 211 valves dating from 1942.

So my experience with 211 tubes is rather limited: I only listened to the three mentioned brands in Kondo amps and never heard any of the other vintage/nos 211 valves such as those from United Electronics, Amperex or others.

I have no experience at all with modern 211 valves such as for example the Elrogs.

So my question to all WBF members is the following: could you please share your experiences with any of the vintage and modern 211 tubes with us?

Of the various 211 tubes I have heard so far in my amps the RCA’s are clearly my favourites.

Jon · Jan 4, 2018

I have a ANJ Ongaku built by Kondo San. The best tubes are the RCA’s, they are getting very hard to obtain. United’s are nearly impossible. NOS GE’s are very good, but not in the RCA category. I have no experience with modern 21’s.

Audiocrack · Jan 4, 2018

Jon said:
I have a ANJ Ongaku built by Kondo San. The best tubes are the RCA’s, they are getting very hard to obtain. United’s are nearly impossible. NOS GE’s are very good, but not in the RCA category. I have no experience with modern 21’s.

Thanks much Jon. In what way(s) do the RCA 211 tubes beat the GE 211 valves in your view? And is rebiassing your amp a relatively easy thing to do?

And have you maybe heard the Amperex 211 tubes? According to some the Amperex 211 valves (even) beat the United Electronics 211 tubes, while the latter are generally rated higher than the RCA 211 valves.

bonzo75 · Jan 4, 2018

Having compared Amperex, RCA, GE, KR, while all are good, Amperex are far better and much more expensive. Just more tone, density, decay, soundstage, depth, and drive. Amps feel like they have added current and watts. Tried in Tektron and a prototype on horns, while Justin has tried those Amperex, RCA, GE on his amps with apogees and prefers Amperex. You will be happy just talk to Kevin about biasing and stuff.

ps: Your Lampi Elrogs were 300bs, not 211s?

Audiocrack · Jan 4, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Having compared Amperex, RCA, GE, KR, while all are good, Amperex are far better and much more expensive. Just more tone, density, decay, soundstage, depth, and drive. Amps feel like they have added current and watts. Tried in Tektron and a prototype on horns, while Justin has tried those Amperex, RCA, GE on his amps with apogees and prefers Amperex. You will be happy just talk to Kevin about biasing and stuff.

ps: Your Lampi Elrogs were 300bs, not 211s?

Thanks Kedar. Yes my mistake, the Elrogs were of course 300b tubes although Elrog produces a 211 valve and a very special version of it that is called the 242 and that is fully interchangeable with the 211. The Elrog 242 tubes are only made on special order and cost EUR 2600 per pair. They collect a number of orders until they have enough to produce another batch of these special 242 tubes. The regular Elrog 211 tubes cost EUR 1385 per pair.

As regards Kevin: you mean Kevin Scott of Definitive Audio?

Audiocrack · Jan 4, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Having compared Amperex, RCA, GE, KR, while all are good, Amperex are far better and much more expensive. Just more tone, density, decay, soundstage, depth, and drive. Amps feel like they have added current and watts. Tried in Tektron and a prototype on horns, while Justin has tried those Amperex, RCA, GE on his amps with apogees and prefers Amperex. You will be happy just talk to Kevin about biasing and stuff.

ps: Your Lampi Elrogs were 300bs, not 211s?

Btw, what kind of amps is Justin using? Don’t the Apogees need a lot of power?

As regards tonality: did you prefer the Amperex 211 tubes in that regard as well (mayby that is what you mean with tone?)?

bonzo75 · Jan 4, 2018

Yes Amperex wre preferred on tonality, and I meant Kevin Scott.

Justin is using some Austrian 170w push pull 211s or something like that, a bit bespoke

Audiocrack · Jan 4, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Yes Amperex wre preferred on tonality, and I meant Kevin Scott.

Justin is using some Austrian 170w push pull 211s or something like that, a bit bespoke

Ok, clear and thanks.

Not sure though if Kevin has any real experience (including rebiassing) with the Kagura amps. As far as I know he prefers the Gakuoh amps with his loudspeakers and only listened relatively briefly to the Kagura’s quite a while back. But I have not spoken with Kevin for quite some time so I may be wrong on this.

Audiocrack · Jan 5, 2018

Does anyone have experience with the Telefunken RS237 (German Army) tubes and does anyone knows if there is a Telefunken 211 valve available?

If I am informed correctly the RS237 is a familiar but not an identical valve and therefore cannot be considered as a (direct) replacement of the 211 tube.

Blue58 · Jan 5, 2018

Western Electric made a 211D tube with almost identical specs to GE. It may be hard to find a matched pair let alone a quad.
https://tubeworldexpress.com/search?q=211D

I’ve never used 211s but from my use of 45s I quickly came to the conclusion that new manufactured tubes beat NOS hands down. Hence I sold my stash pretty quickly. I’d consider trying the Elrog 211 first.

Blue58

Audiocrack · Jan 5, 2018

Blue58 said:
Western Electric made a 211D tube with almost identical specs to GE. It may be hard to find a matched pair let alone a quad.
https://tubeworldexpress.com/search?q=211D

I’ve never used 211s but from my use of 45s I quickly came to the conclusion that new manufactured tubes beat NOS hands down. Hence I sold my stash pretty quickly. I’d consider trying the Elrog 211 first.

Blue58

Thanks. The information I received from various sources who tried the (regular) Elrog 211 tubes with Kondo amps is that nos 211 valves such as RCA, United Electronics and Amperex sound (clearly) superior with Kondo amplification. But I never made a comparison myself.

Prisewise the Elrog 211 tubes are more expensive than the nos General Electric 211 tubes and - provided you can find them of course - not much cheaper than the other mentioned brands. The latter might change if the RCA’s, UE’s and Amperex 211 valves become rarer and rarer.

Blue58 · Jan 5, 2018

Audiocrack said:
Thanks. The information I received from various sources who tried the (regular) Elrog 211 tubes with Kondo amps is that nos 211 valves such as RCA, United Electronics and Amperex sound (clearly) superior with Kondo amplification. But I never made a comparison myself.

Prisewise the Elrog 211 tubes are more expensive than the nos General Electric 211 tubes and - provided you can find them of course - not much cheaper than the other mentioned brands. The latter might change if the RCA’s, UE’s and Amperex 211 valves become rarer and rarer.

I should have said Elrog 242, the new Molybdenum plate 211, though haven’t heard any comments about its SQ.
In any case, what sounds good in one amp may or may not sound good in another amp.

Audiocrack · Jan 5, 2018

Blue58 said:
I should have said Elrog 242, the new Molybdenum plate 211, though haven’t heard any comments about its SQ.
In any case, what sounds good in one amp may or may not sound good in another amp.

Totally agree with your latest remark, hence my question to our members to share as much experiences as possible with various 211 tubes in various amps.

As regards the Elrog 242: probably only a few were produced so far. For monoblocs using two 211 valves in parallel these Elrog 242 tubes require a total investment of EUR 5200. And that for tubes with (almost) no feedback at all! I am not willing to invest such an amount of money in tubes without knowing how reliable they are and without an idea how good they really might be.

microstrip · Jan 5, 2018

Audiocrack said:
Totally agree with your latest remark, hence my question to our members to share as much experiences as possible with various 211 tubes in various amps.

As regards the Elrog 242: probably only a few were produced so far. For monoblocs using two 211 valves in parallel these Elrog 242 tubes require a total investment of EUR 5200. And that for tubes with (almost) no feedback at all! I am not willing to invest such an amount of money in tubes without knowing how reliable they are and without an idea how good they really might be.

Do you know how long are 211 tubes supposed to last in typical class A SE amplifiers?

Audiocrack · Jan 5, 2018

microstrip said:
Do you know how long are 211 tubes supposed to last in typical class A SE amplifiers?

Sorry, I do not know the answer to your question. In the manual of the various Kondo amps nothing is mentioned about the total number of - estimated - playing hours of the (stock) 211 valves. Have too little practical experience myself for a fair/accurate estimation.

Hopefully other WBF members can give you an answer.

Zero000 · Jan 5, 2018

Check out post #4 here: A Visit To Malvern Audio Research

The on/off cycle shortens valve life more than anything but 211s use thoriated (radioactive) tungsten filaments which have the benefit of much longer lifetimes.

A 211 is a transmitter valve and I have heard stories of them living at least 15 years when left constantly on. None of my large all NOS collection has ever failed on me in maybe 10 years of use, with the Amperex I have being used the most.

Finding 4 United Electronics 211s with the same internal structure is close to impossible. Finding a quad of Tele RS237s is easier I believe, though the quad on ebay at the moment is a little steep at $10,000. I had an UE 211 and gave up trying to build a quad after years of trying.

Audiocrack I will reply to your PM really sorry for the delay.

Audiocrack · Jan 5, 2018

User211 said:
Check out post #4 here: A Visit To Malvern Audio Research

The on/off cycle shortens valve life more than anything but 211s use thoriated (radioactive) tungsten filaments which have the benefit of much longer lifetimes.

A 211 is a transmitter valve and I have heard stories of them living at least 15 years when left constantly on. None of my large all NOS collection has ever failed on me in maybe 10 years of use, with the Amperex I have being used the most.

Finding 4 United Electronics 211s with the same internal structure is close to impossible. Finding a quad of Tele RS237s is easier I believe, though the quad on ebay at the moment is a little steep at $10,000. I had an UE 211 and gave up trying to build a quad after years of trying.

Audiocrack I will reply to your PM really sorry for the delay.

Thanks for this feedback, really appreciated.

Zero000 · Jan 5, 2018

Also consider early metal plates like RCA, and the STC 4242. Again very hard to find as quads. I noticed Silbatone were using STC 4242 at Munich in 2011. The character of these should be rather different to the carbon plates used in the majority of "more modern" 211s and by that I still include RCAs date stamped 1942!

The WE 242 metal plates I would guess ELROG are trying to emulate might be interesting, but WE did various 211 and 242 incarnations and again tracking down a quad will be hard.

Audiocrack · Jan 5, 2018

User211 said:
Check out post #4 here: A Visit To Malvern Audio Research

The on/off cycle shortens valve life more than anything but 211s use thoriated (radioactive) tungsten filaments which have the benefit of much longer lifetimes.

A 211 is a transmitter valve and I have heard stories of them living at least 15 years when left constantly on. None of my large all NOS collection has ever failed on me in maybe 10 years of use, with the Amperex I have being used the most.

Finding 4 United Electronics 211s with the same internal structure is close to impossible. Finding a quad of Tele RS237s is easier I believe, though the quad on ebay at the moment is a little steep at $10,000. I had an UE 211 and gave up trying to build a quad after years of trying.

Audiocrack I will reply to your PM really sorry for the delay.

Btw, the qualification ‘sharp’ in relation to the RCA 211 valves in the interesting post you just referred us to really puzzles me. Apart from my own listening to these tubes - a little short of about 100 hours - most comments on the internet refer to the RCA 211 as a ‘warm’ sounding or even the ‘warmest’ sounding 211 tube. In my Kondo amps the RCA 211 valves are inviting or ‘musical’ sounding tubes; so I was wondering whether the RCA 211 tubes you were listening to in the pictured set up were technically ok.

Zero000 · Jan 5, 2018

Audiocrack said:
Btw, the qualification ‘sharp’ in relation to the RCA 211 valves in the interesting post you just referred us to really puzzles me. Apart from my own listening to these tubes - a little short of about 100 hours - most comments on the internet refer to the RCA 211 as a ‘warm’ sounding or even the ‘warmest’ sounding 211 tube. In my Kondo amps the RCA 211 valves are inviting or ‘musical’ sounding tubes; so I was wondering whether the RCA 211 tubes you were listening to in the pictured set up were technically ok.

They are fine they haven't had much use. I have more than a quads worth of them too, so plenty to choose from.

Interestingly I lent them to a friend with an Audio Note Tomei. He uses ELROGs and PsVane. He preferred the GE to the RCAs.

The Chinese totally copied the RCA. I have a quad of the Chinese super cheap copies and remarkably they sound much much better than you would believe for the cost.

211 valves: please share your experiences

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