Zero Distortion Digital Dangal: Jazzhead's System - Neodio Origine, Trinity, Aqua Formula, Stahltek

bonzo75 · Dec 26, 2017

Dangal is the Hindi word for wrestling competitions. In Mumbai during Xmas hols, stopped by at Jazzhead’s, where over two days we did a shootout of:

Stahltek transport with Trinity dac
Stahltek transport with Stahltek Opus Prime dac
Stahltek transport with Aqua formula dac
Neodio Origine, which works as a standalone CD player

Jazzhead’s system is all Stillpointed, and a set of the shun mook giant diamond resonators I brought along were rotated under various dacs to compare with the SS Ultra. The rest of his system is comprised of Trinity Pre, Vitus SS102, and Marten Coltrane 2, with elaborate Tripoint and Entreq grounding network, SMT wings and diffusers, and cabling from Stage 3 Kraken and Leviathan, in a 25 x 11 room. All compares were done using Redbook CDs.

http://zero-distortion.org/neodio-origine-vs-trinity-aqua-formula-and-stahltek-opus-prime/

Tango · Dec 26, 2017

Formula dac doesn't has the high extension. That's is interesting.

What is the silver thing under the dac.

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

Tang

bonzo75 · Dec 26, 2017

Tango said:
Formula dac doesn't has the high extension. That's is interesting.

What is the silver thing under the dac.

Thanks for sharing your impressions.

Tang

Compared to the other three dacs there was lesser extension at both ends and detail.

The Silver things are HRS dampers.

Updated the article with something 853 brought to my attention:

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/news/neodio.htm

"The Neodio Origine S2, a player that used to sell in France for €35,000, will henceforth cost €15,000 within the Euro zone, including sales tax, and €13,750 plus tax outside. Same machine, same stellar performance, but less than half the price.."

CKKeung · Dec 26, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Compared to the other three dacs there was lesser extension at both ends and detail.
The Silver things are HRS dampers.
Updated the article with something 853 brought to my attention:
http://www.theaudiobeat.com/news/neodio.htm
"The Neodio Origine S2, a player that used to sell in France for €35,000, will henceforth cost €15,000 within the Euro zone, including sales tax, and €13,750 plus tax outside. Same machine, same stellar performance, but less than half the price.."

Thanks for such a detailed comparison/review!

The direct sale makes the Neodio Origine S2 much much more competitive!

Both Trinity & Aqua now offer upgrades for their DACS. However mainly the USB route is affected.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2017/12/aqua-acoustic-quality-formula-xhd-dac.html
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/12/trinity-dac-update.html
Will the Trinity DAC and Aqua Formula owners upgrade their DACs?

Jazzhead · Dec 26, 2017

Hi Ked ,

Was good catching up . Thanks again for lugging the Giant Mooks across and giving me a second shot at them . Am I glad you went to the trouble. Like you mentioned a cosmic fit with the the Origine !!! They helped better natural tone , increase mid bass flow , flush out harmonics and help retrieve ambience and spatial cues, note completeness and decay . .This combo Origine + Giant Mooks is the most" Analouge sounding digital" , I have heard ( even if that reads to be a contradiction )

In the little we played around , they seem not to be an universal solution and a fit all kind of footer . When they do fit they do one helluva bang up job .I will seriously have to think of de still pointing my rig , maybe give the Hardpoints a go as an all Mook supported ecosystem might be a tad much . I hope to have another pair of Giant Mooks ( courtesy Spiritofmusic , whom they seem to have fallen out of favor with ) early next year and will be able to assess them even more comprehensively with other components .

Regarding the change in grounding schemes , between your first and second visit : I ground my speakers using two Olympus Ten Ground boxes , attaching them to via an Apollo Infinity Eartha to the negative speaker binding post. Great benefits to be had here , which in my case were , a richer tone density and enhanced dimensionality along with a vibrancy that enhanced the image from within .

Regarding the Trinity , its strength is supposedly its USB implementation with their uber clocks . I do not indulge in computer audio , so have not much further to add other than having that bit of information hang out here.

Will keep you posted on how the Zanden monos take to the Mooks , once I have the second pair . Was an enjoyable two sessions we shared , always good to have inputs from a seasoned concert goer and experience listener like yourself .Stay well and enjoy your future audio adventures . You are indeed the "Anthony Bourdain"of audio reporting .

Regards.

sbo6 · Dec 26, 2017

Interesting, my results with the Aqua are completely opposite of what you report. You stated, "The Aqua had noticeably less extension on either end, and was not nuanced enough for complex music." To quote Mike Lavorgna's Aqua Formula review, "Aqua Formula a master of the infinitely small, where nothing goes unnoticed"; I wholeheartedly agree as an owner of the Formula and one who has heard TotalDac and Aries multiple times.

Maybe you had some synergy issues?

bonzo75 · Dec 26, 2017

sbo6 said:
Interesting, my results with the Aqua are completely opposite of what you report. You stated, "The Aqua had noticeably less extension on either end, and was not nuanced enough for complex music." To quote Mike Lavorgna's Aqua Formula review, "Aqua Formula a master of the infinitely small, where nothing goes unnoticed"; I wholeheartedly agree as an owner of the Formula and one who has heard TotalDac and Aries multiple times.

Maybe you had some synergy issues?

Jazzhead has heard it in other systems in his town, so I will let him comment, as I heard it only in this system in direct compares to Trinity, Neodio, and the Stahltek.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 26, 2017

sbo6 said:
Interesting, my results with the Aqua are completely opposite of what you report. You stated, "The Aqua had noticeably less extension on either end, and was not nuanced enough for complex music." To quote Mike Lavorgna's Aqua Formula review, "Aqua Formula a master of the infinitely small, where nothing goes unnoticed"; I wholeheartedly agree as an owner of the Formula and one who has heard TotalDac and Aries multiple times.

Maybe you had some synergy issues?

I tend to agree.

I've not yet had a chance to read Ked's write-up, but from what I read here sounds like disc only input used for the compare.

not using USB, or HQ Player or an SGM, and not up-sampling and then inputting dxd are not playing to the strengths of the Formula dac either. at least that how I see it. even in the context of my recollection of how the Trinity dac sounded, or what i hear now from the MSB, I don't have those relative memories of the Formula dac's shortfalls. which is not to say that if I were to compare it directly with those other 2 dacs, I might not agree with Ked and Jazzhead.

and, of course, I've not heard the Origine. so there is that.

BruceD · Dec 26, 2017

Top Report Ked!--- ha Anthony Bourdain of the Industry --indeed!

-- Interesting call on the Mook/Stillpoint comparison--

I noticed the same when I replaced( and sold promptly !) Stillpoints that were under my Naim CD555/PSU,with the GDR's the sound

opened up even more from a Combo that I'm sure you are aware of is no slouch

I also like the Neodio heard it twice now--plus having owned the big Jadis Combo the "Gallic" warmth and full bodied performance is evident and compelling

Keep us informed and safe travels!

BruceD

Tango · Dec 26, 2017

BruceD said:
Top Report Ked!--- ha Anthony Bourdain of the Industry --indeed!-- Interesting call on the Mook/Stillpoint comparison--

Anthony Bourdain the Mook's Brand Ambassador

.

sbo6 · Dec 26, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I tend to agree.

I've not yet had a chance to read Ked's write-up, but from what I read here sounds like disc only input used for the compare.

not using USB, or HQ Player or an SGM, and not up-sampling and then inputting dxd are not playing to the strengths of the Formula dac either. at least that how I see it. even in the context of my recollection of how the Trinity dac sounded, or what i hear now from the MSB, I don't have those relative memories of the Formula dac's shortfalls. which is not to say that if I were to compare it directly with those other 2 dacs, I might not agree with Ked and Jazzhead.

and, of course, I've not heard the Origine. so there is that.

Good points, Mike. I assume whatever transport used (I didn't read the full review) connected via SPDIF and not Aqua's I2S.

Tango · Dec 26, 2017

Dear Kedar,

Your blog is very interesting. But the quality of pictures in your blog...well...

There is a Samsung S8 that is very handy and has excellent self adjusted camera. Nomatter how bad you are, the picture would comes ot nice

.

The best pictures you have so far are from Jazzhead.

Kind regards,
Tang

microstrip · Dec 26, 2017

sbo6 said:
(...) Maybe you had some synergy issues?

IMHO your comment addresses the whole process. Although I enjoy reading such narratives, and Ked is an excellent narrator, I completely disagree with the absolute ranking objectives. It takes a lot of fiddling and fine tuning to extract the best of a digital system. Comparing these digital DACs, known to sound excellent in some systems when properly matched, in a system that exposed "digititis" with two of the DACs seems unfair to me - since long good DACs properly matched do not show "digititis".

With either the DCS Vivaldi or the Metronome's system I had to fight for sometime before making them playing decently in my system - it was not an arrive and applaud process. I had to change equipment and tweaks, sometimes feeling that the resident digital reference - the Audio Research tubed CD8 - surpassed the combo's in some important aspects. However, after the long homework was carried, I must say I would be very sorry to come back.

I have no experience with the Stahltek transport, but from my experience these fine tuned transports have a strong sonic signature and can affect strongly the results of DAC comparison.

At one point I really agree with Ked - having recently experienced the CenterStage footers in my DAC, I can confirm this type of devices can improve significantly the sonic performance of a top DAC.

Jazzhead · Dec 26, 2017

sbo6 said:
Good points, Mike. I assume whatever transport used (I didn't read the full review) connected via SPDIF and not Aqua's I2S.

Connection was via the AES connection , the Aqua i2S is a proprietary link that only functions with their Diva Transport .

Jazzhead · Dec 26, 2017

Tango said:
Dear Kedar,

Your blog is very interesting. But the quality of pictures in your blog...well...
There is a Samsung S8 that is very handy and has excellent self adjusted camera. Nomatter how bad you are, the picture would comes ot nice .

The best pictures you have so far are from Jazzhead.

Kind regards,
Tang

That's cause they weren't taken by him

bonzo75 · Dec 26, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
I tend to agree.

I've not yet had a chance to read Ked's write-up, but from what I read here sounds like disc only input used for the compare.

not using USB, or HQ Player or an SGM, and not up-sampling and then inputting dxd are not playing to the strengths of the Formula dac either. at least that how I see it. even in the context of my recollection of how the Trinity dac sounded, or what i hear now from the MSB, I don't have those relative memories of the Formula dac's shortfalls. which is not to say that if I were to compare it directly with those other 2 dacs, I might not agree with Ked and Jazzhead.

and, of course, I've not heard the Origine. so there is that.

Mike, since you have not read the report...

"A few caveats with the demo

1. Stahltek was used a transport for Aqua, Trinity, and Stahltek. Neodio cannot be used with an external transport. It does have an USB, but if somebody is interested in the Neodio, they are buying a one box redbook CD player, and not a streamer/CD transport – dac solution. They are committing themselves to getting up and changing discs
2. One could argue that with SGM, Aurender, or the Aqua transport, the performance of the other dacs could have been improved (the Neodio transport is fixed). Possibly. That’s for someone to find out through another session. There are two Aqua transports in Mumbai, and Jazzhead is familiar with those systems.
3. I remember Elberoth mentioning that as Trinity has a SMPS, it needs to have a separate power source to stop it polluting the power for the rest of the components. I am not sure of the effect of this, and if such a treatment would have changed the balance."

bonzo75 · Dec 26, 2017

microstrip said:
IMHO your comment addresses the whole process. Although I enjoy reading such narratives, and Ked is an excellent narrator, I completely disagree with the absolute ranking objectives. It takes a lot of fiddling and fine tuning to extract the best of a digital system. Comparing these digital DACs, known to sound excellent in some systems when properly matched, in a system that exposed "digititis" with two of the DACs seems unfair to me - since long good DACs properly matched do not show "digititis".

With either the DCS Vivaldi or the Metronome's system I had to fight for sometime before making them playing decently in my system - it was not an arrive and applaud process. I had to change equipment and tweaks, sometimes feeling that the resident digital reference - the Audio Research tubed CD8 - surpassed the combo's in some important aspects. However, after the long homework was carried, I must say I would be very sorry to come back.

I have no experience with the Stahltek transport, but from my experience these fine tuned transports have a strong sonic signature and can affect strongly the results of DAC comparison.

At one point I really agree with Ked - having recently experienced the CenterStage footers in my DAC, I can confirm this type of devices can improve significantly the sonic performance of a top DAC.

Actually, your assessment is incorrect. To start with,
1. one of those dacs assessed with digititis is the most compatible of the whole bunch, i.e. it is the Stahltek transport + dac combo

2. Do you know any digital shootout that is done with all possible transports present to get best possible transport + dac results with each combo? I don't. You start with some data points and keep adding on.

3. The fact that Neodio will always have a transport advantage because it is an all in one could possibly be a reason for its superiority but it will always be the case for Neodio vs a stand alone dac.

4. If the system was tuned to Neodio and Neodio was better, your point was valid. As already emphasized in the report, the system was tuned to Trinity, not Neodio. Before Trinity it was tuned to Stahltek. Jazzhead owns all these and has had them for months in his system.
4a. It is true that many owners still have synergy issues. Especially with analog and speakers like Apogees, where owners don't always set up their stuff correctly, nor do professional reviewers who have it for less time. So the worst you could actually do is listen to it only in one system, whether for one hour or for one year - this process is meant to over time give impressions in various systems to eliminate synergy issues, e.g. Koetsu was done across 5 systems and it sounded good only in Shakti's, completely different from the others. Listening is not difficult - and set up is what takes time, can be flawed in every system
4b. This process, as noted, will also give impressions with Zanden electronics, so you will have impressions with SS gear and valve gear. Transports won't be changed, but someone else can do that to confirm. Jazzhead himself has access to two local Aqua transports, but I doubt after listening to the delta of the Neodio, he would be interested in trying.

sbo6 · Dec 27, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Actually, your assessment is incorrect. To start with,
1. one of those dacs assessed with digititis is the most compatible of the whole bunch, i.e. it is the Stahltek transport + dac combo

2. Do you know any digital shootout that is done with all possible transports present to get best possible transport + dac results with each combo? I don't. You start with some data points and keep adding on.

3. The fact that Neodio will always have a transport advantage because it is an all in one could possibly be a reason for its superiority but it will always be the case for Neodio vs a stand alone dac.

4. If the system was tuned to Neodio and Neodio was better, your point was valid. As already emphasized in the report, the system was tuned to Trinity, not Neodio. Before Trinity it was tuned to Stahltek. Jazzhead owns all these and has had them for months in his system.
4a. It is true that many owners still have synergy issues. Especially with analog and speakers like Apogees, where owners don't always set up their stuff correctly, nor do professional reviewers who have it for less time. So the worst you could actually do is listen to it only in one system, whether for one hour or for one year - this process is meant to over time give impressions in various systems to eliminate synergy issues, e.g. Koetsu was done across 5 systems and it sounded good only in Shakti's, completely different from the others. Listening is not difficult - and set up is what takes time, can be flawed in every system
4b. This process, as noted, will also give impressions with Zanden electronics, so you will have impressions with SS gear and valve gear. Transports won't be changed, but someone else can do that to confirm. Jazzhead himself has access to two local Aqua transports, but I doubt after listening to the delta of the Neodio, he would be interested in trying.

I find this complete commentary comical. This, coming from an advocate of a DAC (Lampi) where tuning abound is required for optimum sonics. Give me a break....

bonzo75 · Dec 27, 2017

sbo6 said:
I find this complete commentary comical. This, coming from an advocate of a DAC (Lampi) where tuning abound is required for optimum sonics. Give me a break....

Actually, it goes extremely well with Lampi. As I said, go to an owner, chances are his Lampi will be tuned to PX25, special EML 45, or 242. If it is not, your second or third shootout will Lampi will be. Hence always the question when someone reports of a Lampi demo - "which tubes were used"

More importantly, an inherent advantage of Lampi is you can tune the dac with the tubes which are an integral part of it...with the other dacs you cannot tune an integral part, only external (transports, cables, footers)

sbo6 · Dec 27, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Actually, it goes extremely well with Lampi. As I said, go to an owner, chances are his Lampi will be tuned to PX25, special EML 45, or 242. If it is not, your second or third shootout will Lampi will be. Hence always the question when someone reports of a Lampi demo - "which tubes were used"

More importantly, an inherent advantage of Lampi is you can tune the dac with the tubes which are an integral part of it...with the other dacs you cannot tune an integral part, only external (transports, cables, footers)

You missed the point....

Zero Distortion Digital Dangal: Jazzhead's System - Neodio Origine, Trinity, Aqua Formula, Stahltek

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