Are High-End Cables a Scam?

Here is another one: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/293165/my-cat-tore-up-my-virtual-dynamics-power-3

Wrapping up some bog standard parts in a garden hose covered with techflex is a common sound improving technique.

Rob,

Please consider this is an old site, it was presented several times in several posts more than five years ago with the same claims. As far as I know, there were no consequences of it, PAD is a well known and reputed cable manufacturer.

Anyone is free to consider that high end cables represent poor value for money, but IMHO starting a thread in these terms just because of these photos does not seem fair.

Disclaimer: I own many high-end expensive cables, but as PAD is not distributed in my country, I have never listened or seen PAD cables.

I don't doubt for a minute that there is an audible difference between cables. I just suspect that if you tested six cables from Radio Shack to Belden to Audioquest, etc. that the one that sounds different, that distinguishes itself from the crowd, is the one that is doing something wrong. Those who believe in premium cables almost always reach the opposite conclusion.

Tim

Phelonious Ponk said:

I don't doubt for a minute that there is an audible difference between cables. I just suspect that if you tested six cables from Radio Shack to Belden to Audioquest, etc. that the one that sounds different, that distinguishes itself from the crowd, is the one that is doing something wrong. Those who believe in premium cables almost always reach the opposite conclusion.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi Tim,

But would you come to the same conclusion if one sounded more natural and more like "live" instruments and voices?

Rich

Not so much a scam as a high end marketing necessity. When is the last time you heard a high end manufacturer tell you to run down to Rat Shack for some zip cord for his 65K speakers? The moneyed customers demand the mystique.
I was interested to read in an article that the Da Vinci Audio guru doesn't believe in cable snake oil, but markets them as a high end necessity for his otherwise costly products.
Can you hear the difference? I think so at times, but it is within the "psychoacoustic accommodation" range, which means after a short time of the ear brain system adapting, it doesn't matter much any more. You can get great cables with top materials such as pure silver and oxygen free copper for very reasonable prices, with great jackets and terminations to boot.
Also, cables have become a major "profit center" for nothing more than the cost of hot air.

To answer the original question in this thread. In one word, YES.

Dan

I do not consider it a scam. However, from my experience, and others may differ in their opinion, I can frequently hear a difference in cables in my system very quickly when they are changed. But, this is not always the case and it is without question, the greater the resolution of your system and with the proper acoustic room treatments and equipment it is more likely to be recognized. As I discovered, and it was indicated by Bryan of GIK Acoustics, with the installation of my Acoustic Room treatments I would hear and recognize differences with changes to the equipment, wiring, etc. much more readily.

Rich

cjfrbw said:

I was interested to read in an article that the Da Vinci Audio guru doesn't believe in cable snake oil, but markets them as a high end necessity for his otherwise costly.

Click to expand...

Interesting. Can I ak you for a link on this subject? As far as I understand, for some people all high-end is snake oil, but I never found anyone claiming that only part of it is snake oil ...
May be the only real criteria to establish the snake oil frontier is the sound quality versus cost ratio. But how can we quantify it?

Sorry, no chapter or verse. It was somewhere where a guy was visiting the Swiss manor where the Da Vinci stuff is crafted.
If high end manufacturers claimed they DID NOT believe in high end cables, they would put themselves at odds with their customers. Touting high end cables is the lesser of evils in high end, and profitable to boot, so I regard it as an example of commercial necessity turning mythology into dictum.
Very few high end manufacturers would have the courage to lose customers or make themselves appear "ignorant" by actually taking the position that high end cables are BS.
Do I believe that you can hear cable differences? Yes, I do, I just think it seldom matters. Just because you can "hear" a difference does not mean qualitatively than one alternative has to be "better" than the other. That leads to another issue, that because a difference is "heard", it is better. I believe more in the "null" hypothesis, that many differences that can be heard are "neutral" in the broad scheme of things, and that only a few are actually "better". However, a lot of things are sold on the basis of "different" rather than "better".
With small signal devices such as cartridges, the differences are greater, but very nice cable of high quality materials do not cost massive amounts of money.

cjfrbw said:

If high end manufacturers claimed they DID NOT believe in high end cables, they would put themselves at odds with their customers. Touting high end cables is the lesser of evils in high end, and profitable to boot, so I regard it as an example of commercial necessity turning mythology into dictum.

Click to expand...

I find very difficult a high end manufacturer can not believe in high end cables. Consider speaker manufacturers, They have experience that the wrong cable can kill the sound of their speakers, although they can not explain why.

cjfrbw said:

Do I believe that you can hear cable differences? Yes, I do, I just think it seldom matters.

Click to expand...

Do you believe in system acoustic synergy (I am not referring to electrical synergy )?

Actually, I am not going to enter into a cable debate. The cable boards are notorious for being the most acrimonious, psycho babble boards in audio with claims leading up to threats and insults. I have stated my opinion, so I will let it rest there.

naturephoto1 said:

Hi Tim,

But would you come to the same conclusion if one sounded more natural and more like "live" instruments and voices?

Rich

Click to expand...

No, if I heard a cable change affect a noticeable increase in the illusion of reality, I would: A) look for the curtain. B) Look behind it. A slight change in frequency response? Maybe. A change in the noise floor? Perhaps. More like real instruments and voices? I'd check my wallet.

Tim

Phelonious Ponk said:

No, if I heard a cable change affect a noticeable increase in the illusion of reality, I would: A) look for the curtain. B) Look behind it. A slight change in frequency response? Maybe. A change in the noise floor? Perhaps. More like real instruments and voices? I'd check my wallet.

Tim

Click to expand...

Hi Tim
Why don't you build your own cable if you have a solder gun and a multi meter, cable will sound different by their connector, conductor,surrounding materials , the way of construction , you can try with materials from cheap to very expansive,surrounding material like Teflon air tube, Teflon tape, or Nylon tube for out side look and protect, etc. will not cost your wallet too much, if you don't like the result you can break it separately and do it again in other form, create new ideas and see what happen will have a lot of fun
tony ma

Robert said:

I believe there ARE cable manufacturers who are creating products of value, even at the high prices. Some are using materials that are outrageously expensive, and designing from an obsessive and exhaustive point of view. I appreciate cables to be on equal footing to individual components. I just wish there was more scrutiny at these costs, because it does a disservice to those who are really trying. It also leads to a sense of cynicism and generalization that is hard to shake.

I do know a bit about what is in my cables and conditioner. It's not tinned copper wire from the hardware store...

Click to expand...

The notion of value is extremely subjective. I will grant you that but even with that notion being vague, it is very but very difficult to attach value with cables especially when you add "even at high prices" ... Trying very hard not to invoke any contentious protocols, the contribution brought by those cables is at best , subtle. For the vast majority of their owners (I would say all but it is a new year so I am being nice ) it is very hard to reliably perceive the diferences between their expensive cables and other electrically adequate cables ... Yet they continue to cost more than the proverbial mid-size sedan, a few (vide the $42,000 speaker cable, venturing into luxury mid-size sedan price category ...

I also would like to know the "outrageously expensive" material such cables use.. Let's suppose they use pure Silver .. Very expensive metal, one would say, Well 12 GA silver wire cost , retails, $12 per foot... Assuming a cable made of four strand of 12 Ga silver to make it the equivalent of a 6 AWG cable(I don't know of ANY audiophile Silver cable currently on the market that thick) for an 8-ft cable pair you are talking about less than $1000 of silver in said cable,Let me assume generously $3,0000 for manufactures and dressing-up (sheath, cable cover connectors, etc) and I am still gasping to explain the $30,000 some cable sell for None of these close to 6 AWG

I would add that any manufacturer has to understand the pulse of its market. There is no need to antagonize a market . The Audiophile market is inits vast majority (is that changing?) believes in cables.. A manufacturer who sounds too contrarian or who try too much to debunk some myths is often ostracized by its very market (John Dunleavy for example) and its market share decreases .. Heck some products are deemed too inexpensive to be good (Evolution Acoustics MM3 for example is neverperceived as the superlative worldclass speaker it truly is).. So components designers/maanufacturers will obey the laws of basic marketing and claim all nice things about cables and say how changing the cables inside their speakers made a "day and night" difference ...
Cynicism? No .. Realism .. Cables in high End .... The conclusion is all yours people.. I think you can infer mine from the preceeding

I'm curious at what price or "construction-quality" level various people here decide (for themselves) the law of diminishing returns begins to appear. Is it at the Radio Shack (~$8-$10 per meter interconnect) level? The entry-level price Audioquest, Kimber or Cardas (~$50-$200 / meter pair)? Somewhere higher?

For what its worth, at CES there was one over-riding cable theme at least as I saw things. Very simply, Kubala Sosna cables were everywhere. And I defy anyone to say they heard a Kubala system that didn't sound at least good. Yes, there were a few Transparents and Nordost systems, but they were few and far between. It seemed that the Kubla Sosna's were everywhere! Good sounding stuff indeed.

High-end Cables — a myth?

tomelex said:

AGREE 100%! And YES, high end cables (high cost, not high quality)are a scam no matter how you look at it technically. Emotionally, that is of course another story.

Tom

Click to expand...

I like you last statement about the visual, but what is actually more correct is this one: We hear thing not the they are, we hear thing the way WE are. The subject of cables has been beaten to death. All should know, however, that many cable manufacturers strive to create the "perfect cable" and pass the development costs on to the consumer. Some firms have invested in full-time R&D and auditions and when you consider the cost of salaries, patents (Teflon is expensive) it is not very difficult to pay out overt $3k a week. The good guys in the industry do spend a lot; advertising costs (they must advertise), overhead, etc. In a mass-market segment, cables do not matter as their customers are, well, not very interested in quality . Those who are already know that cables can make or break a carefully arranges system are willing to spend more. Audio is a hobby, and like any hobby it can develop into an extravagant obsession. What drives the high-end audio industry (that includes cable manufacturers) is their customer's aspirations to own the best, play with it, love it. It is comparable with love (or lust) for a woman (or man), you know: passion —often quite expensive, wouldn't you say?

tony ky ma said:

Hi Tim
Why don't you build your own cable if you have a solder gun and a multi meter, cable will sound different by their connector, conductor,surrounding materials , the way of construction , you can try with materials from cheap to very expansive,surrounding material like Teflon air tube, Teflon tape, or Nylon tube for out side look and protect, etc. will not cost your wallet too much, if you don't like the result you can break it separately and do it again in other form, create new ideas and see what happen will have a lot of fun
tony ma

Click to expand...

Tony I have built both interconnect and speaker cables in the past and yes, I could hear a difference. A slight change in frequency response? Sure. A bit of lift or drop in the noise floor? Perhaps. Enough change to make a cello sound more like a cello, a recording sound more like voices and instruments in my room? I don't have that much imagination.

Now, I use active speakers with integrated preamp and DAC. My one analog cable connects the speakers together. As long as they don't sound different (and they don't, an audible difference would move the image in mono), I'm good. Such a system would make a good cable test, though. If the speaker at the far end of the chain sounded any different, you could be sure the cable was not transparent.

Tim