Magico M6 on TAS

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I think we all have the ability to edit our own posts, don't we?

I wrote twice in subsequent posts that I corrected my original post. I did not hide it or pretend I never wrote it originally. I corrected an earlier, overbroad statement.

What is wrong with that? Maybe I am not understanding you . . .

IMHO Ron, your earlier post has considerable merit. Peter A, if you want to lump all Real Estate brokers in your area into one bag, that’s up to you, but I can tell you that where I live, in California, that profession has considerable ethics guidelines and strict requirements to follow them.
So to generalize is certainly and usually inappropriate.It may well be that your area may also have similar legal and ethical quidlines for that profession...and no one is enforcing them, I don’t know? As I’m sure we can agree, there are bad apples in all professions, but to lump the whole profession into one bag!!
In the case of your original post Ron,I happen to agree with it, simply because some of the behavior of many in the audio/audio reviewing industry has been shown to be... shall we say questionable(and no, neither Ron or I are saying all in the audio industry are guilty of this behavior). Like you pointed out, this type of behavior wouldn’t be tolerated in many other fields...including the real estate industry here in California, or in the securities industry.
While some of the quid pro quo that is obvious in the high end industry may not be strictly illegal, that does not mean that it could be considered ethical.
I have no intention of pointing out individual cases, and neither should Ron have to, but it is not too hard to get an idea as to who the usual suspects are...:rolleyes:
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,521
10,687
3,515
USA
IMHO Ron, your earlier post has considerable merit. Peter A, if you want to lump all Real Estate brokers in your area into one bag, that’s up to you, but I can tell you that where I live, in California, that profession has considerable ethics guidelines and strict requirements to follow them.
So to generalize is certainly and usually inappropriate.It may well be that your area may also have similar legal and ethical quidlines for that profession...and no one is enforcing them, I don’t know? As I’m sure we can agree, there are bad apples in all professions, but to lump the whole profession into one bag!!
In the case of your original post Ron,I happen to agree with it, simply because some of the behavior of many in the audio/audio reviewing industry has been shown to be... shall we say questionable(and no, neither Ron or I are saying all in the audio industry are guilty of this behavior). Like you pointed out, this type of behavior wouldn’t be tolerated in many other fields...including the real estate industry here in California, or in the securities industry.
While some of the quid pro quo that is obvious in the high end industry may not be strictly illegal, that does not mean that it could be considered ethical.
I have no intention of pointing out individual cases, and neither should Ron have to, but it is not too hard to get an idea as to who the usual suspects are...:rolleyes:

Davey, I was not clear enough. I am not saying that the RE brokers are breaking laws. That is why I mentioned them as well as the stock brokers wining and dining fund managers. Of course, my comments are only based on the brokers that I have personally met, seen do business or been told about by friends. It is a brutal profession in my area, where there are far too many brokers for the number of real estate transactions. 5% make 80% of the commissions or something like that. They hold open houses, pressure friends for listings, show up at club events and hand out their cards. This is frowned upon at private social clubs around here. They send gifts during the holidays. And I am not talking about the thin lines they cross about disclosure and avoiding answers. I also have two friends who left the business because they felt "dirty" having to compete with these people. So, as I wrote earlier, I try to avoid them. Of course, not all real estate brokers are like this, and perhaps I am exagerating, but it is a strong impression that I have formed from being exposed to it. Now I am reminded of the lawyer and used car salesmen jokes. I am a landlord, and hear the "slumlord" moniker constantly, so take it for what it is worth.

I used that analogy because if one does not like TAS's or JV's practices, they can simply avoid reading the magazine. I hope I am more clearly describing the distinction between behavior which is unethical, illegal or simply distasteful or "dirty". Practices that breach professional guidelines or local, state, or federal laws should be prosecuted.

Have you read "Freakonomics" by Steven Levitt? I will try to summarize one chapter in it and hope the broad details are accurate. There is a chapter about real estate brokers in southern CA and a study that was done describing how their behavior changes when they are selling their own properties versus trying to sell their clients' properties. The assumption is that they will work in their client's best interest. However, the study makes clear that with the commission structure, brokers are better served financially when they lower prices to make quicker and more frequent deals, and this comes at the expense of the client who may want to hold out another month or two for that higher $50K selling price. The broker may split the commission and end up with only 1.5-3% of that $50K difference while the seller misses the entire amount of price reduction. That loss is minor to the broker, but more significant to the client. The study looked at what happens when brokers sell their own places. They resist lowering the prices and behave the same way as all sellers do. They hold out for higher prices. But when they are selling someone else's property, then their behavior changes to better serve themselves. I don't know if that is illegal, but it seems unethical to me, but it also seems to be rational behavior.

Back on topic, the TAS/JV/Magico arrangement is rational, if distasteful to some. The wining and dining which some are complaining about happens in other industries too, and often, it is a part of doing business.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
3,899
2,141
495

BMCG

VIP/Donor
Oct 1, 2016
234
41
133
United Kingdom
The broker may split the commission and end up with only 1.5-3% of that $50K difference while the seller misses the entire amount of price reduction. That loss is minor to the broker, but more significant to the client. The study looked at what happens when brokers sell their own places. They resist lowering the prices and behave the same way as all sellers do. They hold out for higher prices. But when they are selling someone else's property, then their behavior changes to better serve themselves. I don't know if that is illegal, but it seems unethical to me, but it also seems to be rational behavior.

or in the words of Charles Munger....minute 3:00 of following:


Under-recognition of the power of what psychologists call ‘reinforcement’ and economists call ‘incentives.’

Full text here: https://buffettmungerwisdom.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/mungerspeech_june_95.pdf
 

sbo6

VIP/Donor
May 18, 2014
1,659
593
480
Round Rock, TX
Others don't have to read him. Who cares?

Sums it up quite nicely..

With all the relevant things to drone over in life - an audio review?
 

sbo6

VIP/Donor
May 18, 2014
1,659
593
480
Round Rock, TX
Last year, with much discussion and analysis, we produced four alternative, but not mutually exclusive, objectives of high-end audio:

1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape,

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile, and

4) create a sound that seems live.[/INDENT][/INDENT]

How about the music? How about - "Reproduce enjoyable music with the utmost realism only second to the live event".
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
Davey, I was not clear enough. I am not saying that the RE brokers are breaking laws. That is why I mentioned them as well as the stock brokers wining and dining fund managers. Of course, my comments are only based on the brokers that I have personally met, seen do business or been told about by friends. It is a brutal profession in my area, where there are far too many brokers for the number of real estate transactions. 5% make 80% of the commissions or something like that. They hold open houses, pressure friends for listings, show up at club events and hand out their cards. This is frowned upon at private social clubs around here. They send gifts during the holidays. And I am not talking about the thin lines they cross about disclosure and avoiding answers. I also have two friends who left the business because they felt "dirty" having to compete with these people. So, as I wrote earlier, I try to avoid them. Of course, not all real estate brokers are like this, and perhaps I am exagerating, but it is a strong impression that I have formed from being exposed to it. Now I am reminded of the lawyer and used car salesmen jokes. I am a landlord, and hear the "slumlord" moniker constantly, so take it for what it is worth.

I used that analogy because if one does not like TAS's or JV's practices, they can simply avoid reading the magazine. I hope I am more clearly describing the distinction between behavior which is unethical, illegal or simply distasteful or "dirty". Practices that breach professional guidelines or local, state, or federal laws should be prosecuted.

Have you read "Freakonomics" by Steven Levitt? I will try to summarize one chapter in it and hope the broad details are accurate. There is a chapter about real estate brokers in southern CA and a study that was done describing how their behavior changes when they are selling their own properties versus trying to sell their clients' properties. The assumption is that they will work in their client's best interest. However, the study makes clear that with the commission structure, brokers are better served financially when they lower prices to make quicker and more frequent deals, and this comes at the expense of the client who may want to hold out another month or two for that higher $50K selling price. The broker may split the commission and end up with only 1.5-3% of that $50K difference while the seller misses the entire amount of price reduction. That loss is minor to the broker, but more significant to the client. The study looked at what happens when brokers sell their own places. They resist lowering the prices and behave the same way as all sellers do. They hold out for higher prices. But when they are selling someone else's property, then their behavior changes to better serve themselves. I don't know if that is illegal, but it seems unethical to me, but it also seems to be rational behavior.

Back on topic, the TAS/JV/Magico arrangement is rational, if distasteful to some. The wining and dining which some are complaining about happens in other industries too, and often, it is a part of doing business.

That would all make perfect sense, except for one thing....
The Brokers do not make the decision about what the price is going to be that a) the Seller accepts and b) the Asking price of the property in the first place...all of those things are completely in the control of the seller.

Dave C, the new M6’s look great.
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
I have a simple question: why wouldn't reviewers have their own preferences and biases????

I would never expect any one of them to be absolutely objective about anything they write, and in fact, I have not met anyone in person or online who is, and neither am I.
 

sbo6

VIP/Donor
May 18, 2014
1,659
593
480
Round Rock, TX
I have a simple question: why wouldn't reviewers have their own preferences and biases????

I would never expect any one of them to be absolutely objective about anything they write, and in fact, I have not met anyone in person or online who is, and neither am I.

Es la verdad...
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
One way to look at the high end audio industry is through the "business to business to consumer" model. This is not unusual. Kind of like a pharmaceutical company teaching a provider about their product, who then sell/ recommended to consumers. Or insurance companies working with insurance brokers, who then sell the specific insurance products to end customers. And in high-end also , it seems in most cases , we have audio manufacturers working with reviewers to "market to" and "sell" to consumers, with considerable benefits to reviewers.

Most people are familiar with reward programs for consumers like airline miles and Amazon prime. But businesses also have programs for other businesses that sell to consumers to boost their sales , such as insurance companies organizing trips for top agents, rebates for hvac suppliers , etc. Consumers who are sold a particular brand are probably not aware that being sold a certain brand may result in a nice gift or a bear hunting trip for the guy selling them / recommending the one hvac product Over another to them. Obviously incentives don't necessarily align in all cases, and the customer may get a short end of the stick in some cases. I would certainly love to be a fly on the wall during negotiations between reviewers and gear manufacturers . Curious how much Heilbruenner paid for the Wilson Warm or how long sterile Jon will hold on to Magico pro, m3,m6....valin has a lot fans. Maybe he can sign and sell these speakers when he is done? :)


So high- end is not much different than other "business to business to consumer" Industries. Instead of bear and duck hunting trips and rebates, reviewers get free gear via long - term loans and discounts on gear they like. And to boost their self-importance, when they attend shows, they also get to wear fancier -looking badges of recognition than the average schmuck off the street so they can preach their tastes with more authority...
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
why do Magico focused threads always come off the rails? it seems like the posting takes a dark, nasty turn. like the gapers block on the freeway when there is an accident in the far lanes. we want to see if there is any blood.

time for music. a little Debussy tonight I think....

Mike, here are some thoughts. Emotions aside, here's a business analysis of what's going on. Magico is a polarizing brand. Some are raving fans, while many abhor it. (Same with Wilson!) But why? Here are some thoughts:
- arrogance and superiority. Only wolf (and valin ) knows what is right, while every other designer is a fukking dumbshti and owner of every other brand is deaf mother fuyer who is listening to badly engineered , grossly colored gear. Your speaker designer couldn't hold up wolfs jock strap!

This is Only in wolf's (and valin's and Harley's) imagination, of course. Thankfully for ALL, the q series has been discontinued! After all it was the q5 that started the polarization of Magico and shattered the reputation of STERILE Jon, "Worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley, and the TAS brand. (Amazing Tom Martin tas owner lets it happen! Too bad he doesn't care about tas. Although valin is untouchable, Worthless harley should have been booted a long time ago)
- Claims of best, which is insane, stupid, and insulting to the fans. Despite Magico's claim of outstanding measurements, we are participating in a subjective, experiential hobby. Audio gear is an experience , not just a set of engineering designs and measurements, and not every experience is going to appeal to everyone. Is a trip to Italy better than a trip to France?
- Sterile jon valin is Magico marketing representative to the audiophile world, and although a great writer at times, more frequently than not, he comes across as a pathetic used car salesman. People naturally respond to salesmen with skepticism - They Quibble and question and challenge the sales guy's every statement . But when people audition based on Sterile Jonathan's great writing ANd don't connect with "the sonic truth" in their imagination with what valin is describing, it's impossible to make the sale.
- Magico's ultra detail - resolving gear doesn't synergize well with most ss, and most tube amps can't handle it; for many tastes (and it's silly to argue about tastes), it just doesn't agree. So experienced and self-confident audiophiles, who are non- Magico fans (who don't buy by brand) , that stumble upon a Magico and hear all that detail, will encounter an experience that is a completely a different experience that sterile Jon is imagining in his mind and describing in his writing. Within a few minutes of listening, The moment of excitement and anticipation turns into a disappointing anti- wow! moment - despite all the hype . Instead of conjuring up images of dean Martin in the listening room, they just hear "unnatural sounds" and consider valin a deaf idiot and a panderer. High end audio is , after all, subjective. (If interested, here's some on theory of subjectivity-

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Predictability&p=433756&viewfull=1#post433756

- Selling is hard. Selling subjective experiences outside your taste niche is a real bitch! Can't have a worse jobs on this than either an advertiser / marketer or a salesmen, but valin got 2 of them! If one wants to be disrespected, how's that for a double whammy?




- worthless to the audio fans Robert Harley calling Magico Q7 the best product he has ever reviewed, while neglecting its weaknesses, like inability to rock, sonic signature highlighting upper midrange/ lower treble, etc., while also neglecting to mention the relative strengths and weaknesses of q7 as compared to Wilson Alexandria, that was his prior reference, is an ethically shady move that spits in the face of the fans. (These weaknesses were finally admitted by "sterile" Jon valin - but only after the new m generation came out , and the weaknesses were also finally admitted by worthless Harley only after Q7 v2 was out)

- As a result of Worthless Robert and sterile Jon, the Magico brand is connected to tas and its reviewers, in general. And because audiophiles generally consider most reviewers as filthy, pathetic, worthless, and disgusting individuals who are the scum of the earth, this association negatively rubs off on the Magico brand (and also unfairly marks many good reviewers)

- Because of past misleading information from the reviewers about the discontinued Magico q series, reviewers are no longer trusted in reporting Magico's improvements in the most recent generation, and magico is hampered expanding their market to more people . It's like the Pavlov dog experiment: think of the Magico brand, and instead of feeling pride for their accomplishments and engineering prowess, people feel nauseating disgust because of the reviewers they are associated with. In a lot of ways it's not fair to Magico and it's fans , but that's the reality of marketing associations

- Wolf likes to work the room at audio shows himself. But he has the body language of a pack of starved Pit bulls , ready to tear apart the people visiting the Magico room. Maybe he should replace himself with someone who exudes babies and puppies instead? Or maybe just someone who pretends to enjoy himself ?




Furthermore , for many who may like Magico Sonic signature, spending $170k on speakers so only 600 well recorded CDs that exist in the world and sound good is asinine. Even to the multi-millionairies who can easily afford them.

Yet on he positive side, Obviously, this polarization created by wolf and tas increases brand awareness


Magico got a great niche of fervent fans who exploit and amplify this polarization. And wolf has reviewers, who Believe in his company and engineering approach with same ideological fervor and suspension of critical reason with which many religious folks believe in their faith. When someone is so intransigent, it is really hard to shake. So he is well set for the near future , or as long as valin is alive

So they can certainly make a lot of money from this niche. Great success indeed!
 

Kingsrule

VIP/Donor
Feb 3, 2011
1,432
681
1,430
Mike, here are some thoughts. Emotions aside, here's a business analysis of what's going on. Magico is a polarizing brand. Some are raving fans, while many abhor it. (Same with Wilson!) But why? Here are some thoughts:
- arrogance and superiority. Only wolf (and valin ) knows what is right, while every other designer is a fukking dumbshti and owner of every other brand is deaf mother fuyer who is listening to badly engineered , grossly colored gear. Your speaker designer couldn't hold up wolfs jock strap!

This is Only in wolf's (and valin's and Harley's) imagination, of course. Thankfully for ALL, the q series has been discontinued! After all it was the q5 that started the polarization of Magico and shattered the reputation of STERILE Jon, "Worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley, and the TAS brand. (Amazing Tom Martin tas owner lets it happen! Too bad he doesn't care about tas. Although valin is untouchable, Worthless harley should have been booted a long time ago)
- Claims of best, which is insane, stupid, and insulting to the fans. Despite Magico's claim of outstanding measurements, we are participating in a subjective, experiential hobby. Audio gear is an experience , not just a set of engineering designs and measurements, and not every experience is going to appeal to everyone. Is a trip to Italy better than a trip to France?
- Sterile jon valin is Magico marketing representative to the audiophile world, and although a great writer at times, more frequently than not, he comes across as a pathetic used car salesman. People naturally respond to salesmen with skepticism - They Quibble and question and challenge the sales guy's every statement . But when people audition based on Sterile Jonathan's great writing ANd don't connect with "the sonic truth" in their imagination with what valin is describing, it's impossible to make the sale.
- Magico's ultra detail - resolving gear doesn't synergize well with most ss, and most tube amps can't handle it; for many tastes (and it's silly to argue about tastes), it just doesn't agree. So experienced and self-confident audiophiles, who are non- Magico fans (who don't buy by brand) , that stumble upon a Magico and hear all that detail, will encounter an experience that is a completely a different experience that sterile Jon is imagining in his mind and describing in his writing. Within a few minutes of listening, The moment of excitement and anticipation turns into a disappointing anti- wow! moment - despite all the hype . Instead of conjuring up images of dean Martin in the listening room, they just hear "unnatural sounds" and consider valin a deaf idiot and a panderer. High end audio is , after all, subjective. (If interested, here's some on theory of subjectivity-

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Predictability&p=433756&viewfull=1#post433756

- Selling is hard. Selling subjective experiences outside your taste niche is a real bitch! Can't have a worse jobs on this than either an advertiser / marketer or a salesmen, but valin got 2 of them! If one wants to be disrespected, how's that for a double whammy?




- worthless to the audio fans Robert Harley calling Magico Q7 the best product he has ever reviewed, while neglecting its weaknesses, like inability to rock, sonic signature highlighting upper midrange/ lower treble, etc., while also neglecting to mention the relative strengths and weaknesses of q7 as compared to Wilson Alexandria, that was his prior reference, is an ethically shady move that spits in the face of the fans. (These weaknesses were finally admitted by "sterile" Jon valin - but only after the new m generation came out , and the weaknesses were also finally admitted by worthless Harley only after Q7 v2 was out)

- As a result of Worthless Robert and sterile Jon, the Magico brand is connected to tas and its reviewers, in general. And because audiophiles generally consider most reviewers as filthy, pathetic, worthless, and disgusting individuals who are the scum of the earth, this association negatively rubs off on the Magico brand (and also unfairly marks many good reviewers)

- Because of past misleading information from the reviewers about the discontinued Magico q series, reviewers are no longer trusted in reporting Magico's improvements in the most recent generation, and magico is hampered expanding their market to more people . It's like the Pavlov dog experiment: think of the Magico brand, and instead of feeling pride for their accomplishments and engineering prowess, people feel nauseating disgust because of the reviewers they are associated with. In a lot of ways it's not fair to Magico and it's fans , but that's the reality of marketing associations

- Wolf likes to work the room at audio shows himself. But he has the body language of a pack of starved Pit bulls , ready to tear apart the people visiting the Magico room. Maybe he should replace himself with someone who exudes babies and puppies instead? Or maybe just someone who pretends to enjoy himself ?




Furthermore , for many who may like Magico Sonic signature, spending $170k on speakers so only 600 well recorded CDs that exist in the world and sound good is asinine. Even to the multi-millionairies who can easily afford them.

Yet on he positive side, Obviously, this polarization created by wolf and tas increases brand awareness


Magico got a great niche of fervent fans who exploit and amplify this polarization. And wolf has reviewers, who Believe in his company and engineering approach with same ideological fervor and suspension of critical reason with which many religious folks believe in their faith. When someone is so intransigent, it is really hard to shake. So he is well set for the near future , or as long as valin is alive

So they can certainly make a lot of money from this niche. Great success indeed!


U write like a guy who wants Magico but can afford it and/or is jealous of Alon and Magico.....
 
  • Haha
Reactions: TDX

BlueFox

Member Sponsor
Nov 8, 2013
1,709
406
405
Mike, here are some thoughts. Emotions aside, here's a business analysis of what's going on. Magico is a polarizing brand. Some are raving fans, while many abhor it. (Same with Wilson!) But why? Here are some thoughts:
- arrogance and superiority. Only wolf (and valin ) knows what is right, while every other designer is a fukking dumbshti and owner of every other brand is deaf mother fuyer who is listening to badly engineered , grossly colored gear. Your speaker designer couldn't hold up wolfs jock strap!

This is Only in wolf's (and valin's and Harley's) imagination, of course. Thankfully for ALL, the q series has been discontinued! After all it was the q5 that started the polarization of Magico and shattered the reputation of STERILE Jon, "Worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley, and the TAS brand. (Amazing Tom Martin tas owner lets it happen! Too bad he doesn't care about tas. Although valin is untouchable, Worthless harley should have been booted a long time ago)
- Claims of best, which is insane, stupid, and insulting to the fans. Despite Magico's claim of outstanding measurements, we are participating in a subjective, experiential hobby. Audio gear is an experience , not just a set of engineering designs and measurements, and not every experience is going to appeal to everyone. Is a trip to Italy better than a trip to France?
- Sterile jon valin is Magico marketing representative to the audiophile world, and although a great writer at times, more frequently than not, he comes across as a pathetic used car salesman. People naturally respond to salesmen with skepticism - They Quibble and question and challenge the sales guy's every statement . But when people audition based on Sterile Jonathan's great writing ANd don't connect with "the sonic truth" in their imagination with what valin is describing, it's impossible to make the sale.
- Magico's ultra detail - resolving gear doesn't synergize well with most ss, and most tube amps can't handle it; for many tastes (and it's silly to argue about tastes), it just doesn't agree. So experienced and self-confident audiophiles, who are non- Magico fans (who don't buy by brand) , that stumble upon a Magico and hear all that detail, will encounter an experience that is a completely a different experience that sterile Jon is imagining in his mind and describing in his writing. Within a few minutes of listening, The moment of excitement and anticipation turns into a disappointing anti- wow! moment - despite all the hype . Instead of conjuring up images of dean Martin in the listening room, they just hear "unnatural sounds" and consider valin a deaf idiot and a panderer. High end audio is , after all, subjective. (If interested, here's some on theory of subjectivity-

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Predictability&p=433756&viewfull=1#post433756

- Selling is hard. Selling subjective experiences outside your taste niche is a real bitch! Can't have a worse jobs on this than either an advertiser / marketer or a salesmen, but valin got 2 of them! If one wants to be disrespected, how's that for a double whammy?




- worthless to the audio fans Robert Harley calling Magico Q7 the best product he has ever reviewed, while neglecting its weaknesses, like inability to rock, sonic signature highlighting upper midrange/ lower treble, etc., while also neglecting to mention the relative strengths and weaknesses of q7 as compared to Wilson Alexandria, that was his prior reference, is an ethically shady move that spits in the face of the fans. (These weaknesses were finally admitted by "sterile" Jon valin - but only after the new m generation came out , and the weaknesses were also finally admitted by worthless Harley only after Q7 v2 was out)

- As a result of Worthless Robert and sterile Jon, the Magico brand is connected to tas and its reviewers, in general. And because audiophiles generally consider most reviewers as filthy, pathetic, worthless, and disgusting individuals who are the scum of the earth, this association negatively rubs off on the Magico brand (and also unfairly marks many good reviewers)

- Because of past misleading information from the reviewers about the discontinued Magico q series, reviewers are no longer trusted in reporting Magico's improvements in the most recent generation, and magico is hampered expanding their market to more people . It's like the Pavlov dog experiment: think of the Magico brand, and instead of feeling pride for their accomplishments and engineering prowess, people feel nauseating disgust because of the reviewers they are associated with. In a lot of ways it's not fair to Magico and it's fans , but that's the reality of marketing associations

- Wolf likes to work the room at audio shows himself. But he has the body language of a pack of starved Pit bulls , ready to tear apart the people visiting the Magico room. Maybe he should replace himself with someone who exudes babies and puppies instead? Or maybe just someone who pretends to enjoy himself ?




Furthermore , for many who may like Magico Sonic signature, spending $170k on speakers so only 600 well recorded CDs that exist in the world and sound good is asinine. Even to the multi-millionairies who can easily afford them.

Yet on he positive side, Obviously, this polarization created by wolf and tas increases brand awareness


Magico got a great niche of fervent fans who exploit and amplify this polarization. And wolf has reviewers, who Believe in his company and engineering approach with same ideological fervor and suspension of critical reason with which many religious folks believe in their faith. When someone is so intransigent, it is really hard to shake. So he is well set for the near future , or as long as valin is alive

So they can certainly make a lot of money from this niche. Great success indeed!

LOL. What a ridiculous rant.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
Come on guys! So you disagree with my analysis? Fine. So argue why you think Magico is such a polarizing brand. Point out where ch points you disagree with.

Calling me names and saying I'm jealous just makes you look bad
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,521
10,687
3,515
USA
That would all make perfect sense, except for one thing....
The Brokers do not make the decision about what the price is going to be that a) the Seller accepts and b) the Asking price of the property in the first place...all of those things are completely in the control of the seller.

Dave C, the new M6’s look great.

Davey, I know quite a few sellers who don't know what their houses are worth, so they ask a broker, the market expert, to suggest a price. Sure the seller is free to accept or reject it, but often the seller is relying on the advice of the "professional". In this scenario, can you not imagine the broker suggesting a price that is more likely to sell quicker than a slightly higher price which would benefit more the seller?

This is like my relationship with my lawyer whom I hire for evictions. He is the expert, so I pay him to offer advice. Sure, I have to approve or reject that advice, so I am "completely" in control, but he knows more than I do, and could easily take advantage of that disparity of knowledge and experience. In these kinds of relationships, it is easy for one party to take advantage of the other. Same with construction contractors. It is easy to say that the client is in control. He is, but that does not mean that the hired professional will not put his own interests first. Buyer beware.
 

PeterA

Well-Known Member
Dec 6, 2011
12,521
10,687
3,515
USA
Mike, here are some thoughts. Emotions aside, here's a business analysis of what's going on. Magico is a polarizing brand. Some are raving fans, while many abhor it. (Same with Wilson!) But why? Here are some thoughts:
- arrogance and superiority. Only wolf (and valin ) knows what is right, while every other designer is a fukking dumbshti and owner of every other brand is deaf mother fuyer who is listening to badly engineered , grossly colored gear. Your speaker designer couldn't hold up wolfs jock strap!

This is Only in wolf's (and valin's and Harley's) imagination, of course. Thankfully for ALL, the q series has been discontinued! After all it was the q5 that started the polarization of Magico and shattered the reputation of STERILE Jon, "Worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley, and the TAS brand. (Amazing Tom Martin tas owner lets it happen! Too bad he doesn't care about tas. Although valin is untouchable, Worthless harley should have been booted a long time ago)
- Claims of best, which is insane, stupid, and insulting to the fans. Despite Magico's claim of outstanding measurements, we are participating in a subjective, experiential hobby. Audio gear is an experience , not just a set of engineering designs and measurements, and not every experience is going to appeal to everyone. Is a trip to Italy better than a trip to France?
- Sterile jon valin is Magico marketing representative to the audiophile world, and although a great writer at times, more frequently than not, he comes across as a pathetic used car salesman. People naturally respond to salesmen with skepticism - They Quibble and question and challenge the sales guy's every statement . But when people audition based on Sterile Jonathan's great writing ANd don't connect with "the sonic truth" in their imagination with what valin is describing, it's impossible to make the sale.
- Magico's ultra detail - resolving gear doesn't synergize well with most ss, and most tube amps can't handle it; for many tastes (and it's silly to argue about tastes), it just doesn't agree. So experienced and self-confident audiophiles, who are non- Magico fans (who don't buy by brand) , that stumble upon a Magico and hear all that detail, will encounter an experience that is a completely a different experience that sterile Jon is imagining in his mind and describing in his writing. Within a few minutes of listening, The moment of excitement and anticipation turns into a disappointing anti- wow! moment - despite all the hype . Instead of conjuring up images of dean Martin in the listening room, they just hear "unnatural sounds" and consider valin a deaf idiot and a panderer. High end audio is , after all, subjective. (If interested, here's some on theory of subjectivity-

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Predictability&p=433756&viewfull=1#post433756

- Selling is hard. Selling subjective experiences outside your taste niche is a real bitch! Can't have a worse jobs on this than either an advertiser / marketer or a salesmen, but valin got 2 of them! If one wants to be disrespected, how's that for a double whammy?




- worthless to the audio fans Robert Harley calling Magico Q7 the best product he has ever reviewed, while neglecting its weaknesses, like inability to rock, sonic signature highlighting upper midrange/ lower treble, etc., while also neglecting to mention the relative strengths and weaknesses of q7 as compared to Wilson Alexandria, that was his prior reference, is an ethically shady move that spits in the face of the fans. (These weaknesses were finally admitted by "sterile" Jon valin - but only after the new m generation came out , and the weaknesses were also finally admitted by worthless Harley only after Q7 v2 was out)

- As a result of Worthless Robert and sterile Jon, the Magico brand is connected to tas and its reviewers, in general. And because audiophiles generally consider most reviewers as filthy, pathetic, worthless, and disgusting individuals who are the scum of the earth, this association negatively rubs off on the Magico brand (and also unfairly marks many good reviewers)

- Because of past misleading information from the reviewers about the discontinued Magico q series, reviewers are no longer trusted in reporting Magico's improvements in the most recent generation, and magico is hampered expanding their market to more people . It's like the Pavlov dog experiment: think of the Magico brand, and instead of feeling pride for their accomplishments and engineering prowess, people feel nauseating disgust because of the reviewers they are associated with. In a lot of ways it's not fair to Magico and it's fans , but that's the reality of marketing associations

- Wolf likes to work the room at audio shows himself. But he has the body language of a pack of starved Pit bulls , ready to tear apart the people visiting the Magico room. Maybe he should replace himself with someone who exudes babies and puppies instead? Or maybe just someone who pretends to enjoy himself ?




Furthermore , for many who may like Magico Sonic signature, spending $170k on speakers so only 600 well recorded CDs that exist in the world and sound good is asinine. Even to the multi-millionairies who can easily afford them.

Yet on he positive side, Obviously, this polarization created by wolf and tas increases brand awareness


Magico got a great niche of fervent fans who exploit and amplify this polarization. And wolf has reviewers, who Believe in his company and engineering approach with same ideological fervor and suspension of critical reason with which many religious folks believe in their faith. When someone is so intransigent, it is really hard to shake. So he is well set for the near future , or as long as valin is alive

So they can certainly make a lot of money from this niche. Great success indeed!

Wow, caesar, that was quite something. I agree with you that Valin is a good writer, but none of what you wrote has anything to do with this Magico speaker. Valin's review is the reason I sought out an audition. I heard it in three different settings with different amplification and decided to buy a pair. I've had them for years and have no plans to sell them. Have you heard the Magico Mini II and would you care to share your opinion about its sound?

DSC_1519.jpg
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
Wow, caesar, that was quite something. I agree with you that Valin is a good writer, but none of what you wrote has anything to do with this Magico speaker. Valin's review is the reason I sought out an audition. I heard it in three different settings with different amplification and decided to buy a pair. I've had them for years and have no plans to sell them. Have you heard the Magico Mini II and would you care to share your opinion about its sound?

View attachment 37723

Yes, i have heard it and like it a lot. it may be the best speaker they ever made. If I didn't already have 2 large, reference systems, I would pick up a pair and run them with symphonic line krafts. A dream system indeed.
 

RogerD

VIP/Donor
May 23, 2010
3,734
318
565
BiggestLittleCity
Mike, here are some thoughts. Emotions aside, here's a business analysis of what's going on. Magico is a polarizing brand. Some are raving fans, while many abhor it. (Same with Wilson!) But why? Here are some thoughts:
- arrogance and superiority. Only wolf (and valin ) knows what is right, while every other designer is a fukking dumbshti and owner of every other brand is deaf mother fuyer who is listening to badly engineered , grossly colored gear. Your speaker designer couldn't hold up wolfs jock strap!

This is Only in wolf's (and valin's and Harley's) imagination, of course. Thankfully for ALL, the q series has been discontinued! After all it was the q5 that started the polarization of Magico and shattered the reputation of STERILE Jon, "Worthless to the audio fans" Robert Harley, and the TAS brand. (Amazing Tom Martin tas owner lets it happen! Too bad he doesn't care about tas. Although valin is untouchable, Worthless harley should have been booted a long time ago)
- Claims of best, which is insane, stupid, and insulting to the fans. Despite Magico's claim of outstanding measurements, we are participating in a subjective, experiential hobby. Audio gear is an experience , not just a set of engineering designs and measurements, and not every experience is going to appeal to everyone. Is a trip to Italy better than a trip to France?
- Sterile jon valin is Magico marketing representative to the audiophile world, and although a great writer at times, more frequently than not, he comes across as a pathetic used car salesman. People naturally respond to salesmen with skepticism - They Quibble and question and challenge the sales guy's every statement . But when people audition based on Sterile Jonathan's great writing ANd don't connect with "the sonic truth" in their imagination with what valin is describing, it's impossible to make the sale.
- Magico's ultra detail - resolving gear doesn't synergize well with most ss, and most tube amps can't handle it; for many tastes (and it's silly to argue about tastes), it just doesn't agree. So experienced and self-confident audiophiles, who are non- Magico fans (who don't buy by brand) , that stumble upon a Magico and hear all that detail, will encounter an experience that is a completely a different experience that sterile Jon is imagining in his mind and describing in his writing. Within a few minutes of listening, The moment of excitement and anticipation turns into a disappointing anti- wow! moment - despite all the hype . Instead of conjuring up images of dean Martin in the listening room, they just hear "unnatural sounds" and consider valin a deaf idiot and a panderer. High end audio is , after all, subjective. (If interested, here's some on theory of subjectivity-

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...Predictability&p=433756&viewfull=1#post433756

- Selling is hard.

So they can certainly make a lot of money from this niche. Great success indeed!

LMAO...the longer you're in this hobby...sooner or later,the circus comes to town.
 
Last edited:

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing