Horns 2017

DaveC · Dec 3, 2017

Nice post 853!

My horn speaker is a bit different... the intention was very different from a typical horn. It is meant to be easy to setup and produce good results in a typical living space. The horn only provides enough gain to linearize a 4.5" full range driver >400 Hz and boost it's efficiency to around 102 dB, so it's not so deep, but deeper vs a modern waveguide. It also improves the polar pattern over a flat baffle, and the directivity is what makes it produce good results in a typical living space. Also, since the horn covers 400-15,000 Hz it can be listened to nearfield. Bass is a 15" direct radiator using DSP for xo and eq, this also makes is adaptable to different spaces and reduces the trade-off as far as positioning the speakers for best imaging vs bass response. Some companies have given this kind of active bass a bad name but it can be matched seamlessly with the midrange I use. A T500 super tweeter fills out the highs... it's xo'ed high enough it blends seamlessly as well.

I'd love to build a larger system with compression drivers cover the majority of the range, but that along with good amplification is a fortune to do right and needs a large space, none of which I have available right now. So I think some of the horn hybrids and wg speakers are a good compromise and interestingly enough are nearly opposite in their requirements for space and setup vs a large 5-way cd based horn system. Also more forgiving of room acoustics vs cone 'n' dome.

bonzo75 · Dec 3, 2017

853guy said:
Hey!

No experience with Kodo or NVS, but have heard various implementations of the SP10. By “well-restored” SP10, do you simply mean an SP10 that most aligns with your individual preferences?

Have heard ZYX a little, but don’t have enough accumulated body of evidence to say I liked or didn’t like them (system variables, set-up, loading, etc). Heard the Opus on an air-bearing arm on a completely unfamiliar turntable with no idea of loading, set-up, et al - again, zero context with which to make any sort of valid judgement.

I appreciate we're all different, and arrive at our preferences via differing means. Your point if I understand you correctly is you’re not willing to arrive at any conclusions just yet, which I respect. My point is that the end game for me is assembling a system that meets various preferences as I’m less interested in audio tourism as a hobby, and had to be able to understand and articulate what those preferences were in order to align those preferences with a real-world designer/manufacturer.

Have you found that exception? Will you and your significant other be prepared to live with its compromises? Its size? That it may place greater demands on the amplification chain (wattage and/or number of channels), or be semi-active, or need correction via DSP requring your analogue sources to be digitised? That its horn flare will need to conform to a specific shape that will be bandwidth limited and come with a diffractive signature? That its cut-off may be very close to its cross-over frequency? That its made from single sheets of MDF? That it may do physical "time alignment", but its crossover's group delay is neither constant nor linear? That it may major on micro- and macro-dynamics, note-to-note transition, and texture, but be compromised in imaging, sound staging, and top-to-bottom frequency coherence? Of these, which are you willing to live with or not?

Again, my “generalisations” are simply the accumulation of first-hand experience associated with specific systems and limited solely to it - they’re not theoretical. Yours will likely differ, because you’ll be accumulating experiences I won’t have.

But as you say you only need one and I’ve found it - it exists in the real world. Its group delay is constant and linear, is able to be fitted into a domestic living room, is entirely passive, looks great and can be driven by a single SET. But it's not a DIY job. For my preferences - emphasis on “my” - I’ve yet to hear a more compelling transducer.

You’re theorizing you’ll find yours, that it’ll cost you much less and look great. Have you?

I hope you do.

My best to you and your ongoing search,

853guy

Well if you have heard a few restores of Sp10, then that is fair if you don't like it.

I have heard 3 DIY horns I liked, at different price points, all do need a bigger room than what I currently have, but not bigger than what I can have. Looks is the only concern, that can be addressed by paying higher.

"and had to be able to understand and articulate what those preferences were in order to align those preferences with a real-world designer/manufacturer." - I will never be doing that - I believe in choosing a product because of what it sounds like, not because it meets some design criteria.

On audio tourism, I think I have closed on my digital and speakers, unless I stumble upon another DIY horn. I now need to check a bit on OTLs, but otherwise amps will be closed only inhouse. Analog carts there is s short list, schopper is medium term, check Kodo or so for long term. Phonos and arms no idea.

853guy · Dec 3, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Well if you have heard a few restores of Sp10, then that is fair if you don't like it.

I have heard 3 DIY horns I liked, at different price points, all do need a bigger room than what I currently have, but not bigger than what I can have. Looks is the only concern, that can be addressed by paying higher.

"and had to be able to understand and articulate what those preferences were in order to align those preferences with a real-world designer/manufacturer." - I will never be doing that - I believe in choosing a product because of what it sounds like, not because it meets some design criteria.

On audio tourism, I think I have closed on my digital and speakers, unless I stumble upon another DIY horn. I now need to check a bit on OTLs, but otherwise amps will be closed only inhouse. Analog carts there is s short list, schopper is medium term, check Kodo or so for long term. Phonos and arms no idea.

Bonzo,

Of the following, what do you think contributes most to what a product sounds like - its price, its looks, or the implementation of its design topology and parts selection?

853guy

853guy · Dec 3, 2017

DaveC said:
Nice post 853!

My horn speaker is a bit different... the intention was very different from a typical horn. It is meant to be easy to setup and produce good results in a typical living space. The horn only provides enough gain to linearize a 4.5" full range driver >400 Hz and boost it's efficiency to around 102 dB, so it's not so deep, but deeper vs a modern waveguide. It also improves the polar pattern over a flat baffle, and the directivity is what makes it produce good results in a typical living space. Also, since the horn covers 400-15,000 Hz it can be listened to nearfield. Bass is a 15" direct radiator using DSP for xo and eq, this also makes is adaptable to different spaces and reduces the trade-off as far as positioning the speakers for best imaging vs bass response. Some companies have given this kind of active bass a bad name but it can be matched seamlessly with the midrange I use. A T500 super tweeter fills out the highs... it's xo'ed high enough it blends seamlessly as well.

I'd love to build a larger system with compression drivers cover the majority of the range, but that along with good amplification is a fortune to do right and needs a large space, none of which I have available right now. So I think some of the horn hybrids and wg speakers are a good compromise and interestingly enough are nearly opposite in their requirements for space and setup vs a large 5-way cd based horn system. Also more forgiving of room acoustics vs cone 'n' dome.

Hi Dave,

I know "compromise" is a dirty word, but I've yet to meet a practitioner in any field who doesn't appreciate how essential the understanding of those compromises is in the real world. In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Ha.

Best,

853guy

NB: To the moderators... This is my 1000th post. Do I win a prize?

marslo · Dec 3, 2017

kodomo said:
I guess yours are Cessaro Gamma. Those are the closest relatives I have with my speaker commercially. There are many similarities but as I said, even little things cause difference. I wonder which bass option you got. All of them I have seen with Cessaro had time alignment problems and that was one thing I did not want after my last horn system which was not time aligned. For that reason I did go for direct radiator below my midbass horn. That is one difference. Midbass is very close, my horn is a little bigger and with smaller throat because of the compression chamber I have, but we use even the same drivers (Supravox 285-2000 alnico) but mine are modified. The rest looks similar but are different. Different drivers, different cutoff point of horns and even different flares. I tried the TAD cd's and prefered beryllium Radians over them. The TAD cd I most liked was 2003 but then again two radians blended better. I got TAD 1601b woofers for my direct radiator though, lovely tone. I also employed my favourite tweeter with horns the Fostex t500amkII's. Our crossovers follow similar models but I have impedance correction so set amps drive them beautifully. I also biamp for my bass, like cessaro does, but rather than plate amps, I have monoblock solid states. One other difference is the distance between drivers vertically. I spent so much time on this, and was the reason I have built that stand. I tried many configurations, measured, listened for weeks, changed and listened and measured. I tried Cessaro Gamma heights and what I achieve with mine sounds more cohesive and the image is standing lower than Gamma's stereo image. You dont feel like someone is on the stage singing to you with mine. Mine are as close as they can be without causing a problem at and around listening spot.

Great speakers those Cessaros are! First class workmanship too!

I am very much impressed by your system Kodomo as probably everyone at WBF is, congratulations.
I am also of the opinion that Ceassaro are perfectly built with very good components, it is a class workmanship indeed.
Unfortunately I had never a chance to hear them playing well, I listened to the top of the line in Munich 14 and 3 times in Warsaw to various models, always disappointing.
Acapellas and big AG's sounded always better to me.

The new XD series from AG with DSP and advanced settings of the low frequencies from 16 to 250 Hz ( possibility up to 500) solved all major acoustics issues in my living room.

DaveC · Dec 3, 2017

853guy said:
Hi Dave,

I know "compromise" is a dirty word, but I've yet to meet a practitioner in any field who doesn't appreciate how essential the understanding of those compromises is in the real world. In the words of the immortal Yogi Berra "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." Ha.

Best,

853guy

NB: To the moderators... This is my 1000th post. Do I win a prize?

*Virtual pat on the back*

Good job!

I think speaker design is interesting as it's really about choosing what compromises you want to make. Like an automobile, it can't be good at everything all at once!

sbo6 · Dec 3, 2017

christoph said:
Don't forget hORNS Universum

View attachment 37575

Absolutely beautiful, like a work of art. They look much more expensive than $27K pr. You view is not to shabby either, congrats!

marslo · Dec 3, 2017

sbo6 said:
Absolutely beautiful, like a work of art. They look much more expensive than $27K pr. You view is not to shabby either, congrats!

+1
If not AG I would have hORNS.

christoph · Dec 3, 2017

sbo6 said:
Absolutely beautiful, like a work of art. They look much more expensive than $27K pr. You view is not to shabby either, congrats!

Thank you sbo6.
They not only look much more expensive, they also sound a LOT much more expensive

christoph · Dec 3, 2017

marslo said:
+1
If not AG I would have hORNS.

As you should

After all, they are from your own homeland.
Show a little patriotism

They are really awesome

Tango · Dec 3, 2017

Hello horn fans,

I have heard so many unfavorable comments of branded horns including Cessaro from audio shows. They were sincere comments and likely true. In my life, I went to only two audio shows and I never thought of going again because auditioning anything at the show could really turn gold into sh_t. You cant really compare what you hear at home where you have all the time in your life to tweak until you get it right to show condition that involves one day one night of set up of a system like horns weighing more than two tons. Humbly put, with a proper time consuming set up, expensive brand horns can sound no less if not more fantastic than the DIY or super custom one man show niche horn. The only problem is they are just freaking expensive.

When you buy Cessaro big horn system you get a luxury of having Ralph to come install the whole system. If you hear time alignment problem, upper, middle horns and tweeters can be moving up down left right in out, and Ralph would just be adjusting them til right. His horns are just as custom as anything else but with modern technology, advance materials and industrial manufacturing technique. If you look in the back of the Gamma horns you would be as amazed as looking at Wlison Alex or XLF...just immacuate craftmanship of aluminum work. But this isnt the point. The point is some branded horns you see and hear in audio show, like Cessaro, are actually no less custom than the DIY or others that are made by some horn guru in a small barn. Ralph will also come to your home until you and him think it sounds rightly fantastic. I dont know if this qualify as custom or not. My GammaII came in more than 50 pieces and he assembled them in my room, came to Bangkok twice to tweak and fine tune. Ralph collaborated with Gerhard of Ayon. And Gerhard came to my place three times to matched his amps, preamps to the Gamma. Cessaro big systems are made to order. You can choose what you want like choosing Porsche's options. Field coil, size of driver, backload, frontload, 16", 18", copper or silver internal and external wire, you name it. But Cessaro sold more than 5 big systems this year. Thats why I asked Bonzo what custom means.

Having paid so much money, am I just lucky I dont have 9 foot tall Dean Martin singing on elevated stage. The last time I heard him he was standing on my carpet singing in my room a meter behind the middle of my two bass horns

.

Kind regards,
Tang

???????

kodomo · Dec 3, 2017

Tango said:
Hello horn fans,

I have heard so many unfavorable comments of branded horns including Cessaro from audio shows. They were sincere comments and likely true. In my life, I went to only two audio shows and I never thought of going again because auditioning anything at the show could really turn gold into sh_t. You cant really compare what you hear at home where you have all the time in your life to tweak until you get it right to show condition that involves one day one night of set up of a system like horns weighing more than two tons. Humbly put, with a proper time consuming set up, expensive brand horns can sound no less if not more fantastic than the DIY or super custom one man show niche horn. The only problem is they are just freaking expensive.

When you buy Cessaro big horn system you get a luxury of having Ralph to come install the whole system. If you hear time alignment problem, upper, middle horns and tweeters can be moving up down left right in out, and Ralph would just be adjusting them til right. His horns are just as custom as anything else but with modern technology, advance materials and industrial manufacturing technique. If you look in the back of the Gamma horns you would be as amazed as looking at Wlison Alex or XLF...just immacuate craftmanship of aluminum work. But this isnt the point. The point is some branded horns you see and hear in audio show, like Cessaro, are actually no less custom than the DIY or others that are made by some horn guru in a small barn. Ralph will also come to your home until you and him think it sounds rightly fantastic. I dont know if this qualify as custom or not. My GammaII came in more than 50 pieces and he assembled them in my room, came to Bangkok twice to tweak and fine tune. Ralph collaborated with Gerhard of Ayon. And Gerhard came to my place three times to matched his amps, preamps to the Gamma. Cessaro big systems are made to order. You can choose what you want like choosing Porsche's options. Field coil, size of driver, backload, frontload, 16", 18", copper or silver internal and external wire, you name it. But Cessaro sold more than 5 big systems this year. Thats why I asked Bonzo what custom means.

Having paid so much money, am I just lucky I dont have 9 foot tall Dean Martin singing on elevated stage. The last time I heard him he was standing on my carpet singing in my room a meter behind the middle of my two bass horns .

Kind regards,
Tang

???????

Great to hear Ralph comes and adjusts everything to the last detail. This has to be done with these complex horn systems. Great that you enjoy your system the way you want to

They look beautiful as well.

bonzo75 · Dec 3, 2017

Hi Tang, that's great to know he comes and fine tunes. That should be incredible. So from what I understand the Ayon has been tuned by the designer as well, and your analog is also being so done.

Robh3606 · Dec 3, 2017

My horn speaker is a bit different... the intention was very different from a typical horn. It is meant to be easy to setup and produce good results in a typical living space. The horn only provides enough gain to linearize a 4.5" full range driver >400 Hz and boost it's efficiency to around 102 dB, so it's not so deep, but deeper vs a modern waveguide. It also improves the polar pattern over a flat baffle, and the directivity is what makes it produce good results in a typical living space. Also, since the horn covers 400-15,000 Hz it can be listened to nearfield. Bass is a 15" direct radiator using DSP for xo and eq, this also makes is adaptable to different spaces and reduces the trade-off as far as positioning the speakers for best imaging vs bass response. Some companies have given this kind of active bass a bad name but it can be matched seamlessly with the midrange I use. A T500 super tweeter fills out the highs... it's xo'ed high enough it blends seamlessly as well.

Hello Dave

What type of horn are you using on the full range driver? To have any real directivity that low it's got to be big figure a 15 inch driver starts to have meaningful directivity around 900 1 k of so so at 400 hz it's got to be large. The modern horn systems are for the most part are CD designs where they use a direct radiator for the lows, match directivity at the crossover point and horn load above. I use a 10" driver to cover the 300 hz to 1.5k range and match directivity at the upper crossover point. It runs about 101db through the range

Rob

marslo · Dec 4, 2017

christoph said:
As you should
After all, they are from your own homeland.
Show a little patriotism
They are really awesome

I am trying to do so, have already Lampi Dac, PAB platforms and footers and a new Asura QRS underneath my distribution Acoustic Revive RTP 4EU , made by one of our fellow audiophiles:

http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-780&lang=en

I have also outstanding Apricity usb cable:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/stavessence/1.html

One day I will get also hORNS

marslo · Dec 4, 2017

kodomo said:
Great to hear Ralph comes and adjusts everything to the last detail. This has to be done with these complex horn systems. Great that you enjoy your system the way you want to They look beautiful as well.

+1

kodomo · Dec 4, 2017

Is it possible to get some spl readings from the listening spots from the Gamma II and the Duo Mezzo XD. 5db scale and 1/12 resolution is what I have posted earlier, so if you can do the same, it can be a reference. I measured with 72,5db volume at the listening spot. SPL is not everything but it says quite a lot. This is not for evaluating your playbacks (for that one has to listen for some time and have many a different measurements). This is just curiosity and I would be grateful if you can fulfil it and have a little less subjective ground to talk upon.

christoph · Dec 4, 2017

marslo said:
I am trying to do so, have already Lampi Dac, PAB platforms and footers and a new Asura QRS underneath my distribution Acoustic Revive RTP 4EU , made by one of our fellow audiophiles:

http://www.highfidelity.pl/@main-780&lang=en

I have also outstanding Apricity usb cable:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/stavessence/1.html

One day I will get also hORNS

marslo · Dec 4, 2017

kodomo said:
Is it possible to get some spl readings from the listening spots from the Gamma II and the Duo Mezzo XD. 5db scale and 1/12 resolution is what I have posted earlier, so if you can do the same, it can be a reference. I measured with 72,5db volume at the listening spot. SPL is not everything but it says quite a lot. This is not for evaluating your playbacks (for that one has to listen for some time and have many a different measurements). This is just curiosity and I would be grateful if you can fulfil it and have a little less subjective ground to talk upon.

I will have the guy from AG dealer with mic and new soft from AG to make measurments and DSP settings according to room acoustics, just before Christmas. For time being the DSP tuning was done by myself according to my ears and preferences.
Then I will try to make the SPL graph following your proposal, my only concern is my low technical skill

DaveC · Dec 4, 2017

Robh3606 said:
Hello Dave

What type of horn are you using on the full range driver? To have any real directivity that low it's got to be big figure a 15 inch driver starts to have meaningful directivity around 900 1 k of so so at 400 hz it's got to be large. The modern horn systems are for the most part are CD designs where they use a direct radiator for the lows, match directivity at the crossover point and horn load above. I use a 10" driver to cover the 300 hz to 1.5k range and match directivity at the upper crossover point. It runs about 101db through the range

Rob

It's a custom driver in a LeCleac'h horn. It's not very conventional as there are different design consideration vs a more typical horn but I can say it works extremely well, I'm very happy with the result and it does exactly what I intended. The speaker sounds like an excellent full-range driver with full frequency extension, the ability to play at much higher SPLs and a much better polar response.

I'm well aware of directivity matching but when your mid horn covers down to 400 Hz it doesn't matter anymore. Also, you'd need a big woofer for it's directivity to narrow by 400 Hz!

IMO the issue with these kind of speakers, either full-range driver or compression driver, is driver quality. Very few CDs or full range drivers sound good imo, but the ones that do beat out traditional cone 'n' domes for my tastes.

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