Horns 2017

As a someone who has space but not currently the budget for a large horn, I do agree that driver quality is important but only to a point. The 555 is a good example. You get all sorts of advice when you mention that you would like a speaker based around the 555. Many say only the original (with original diaphram) will do, others say GIP is better etc. As my budget may never stretch to the "originals" or even top quality repros, I have looked at modern copies like LM and a few other small shops. Reality hits when totalling the cost up and the driver seems to be the only real source of compromise when you can't DIY in a timeframe that makes sense.

DaveC said:

It's a custom driver in a LeCleac'h horn. It's not very conventional as there are different design consideration vs a more typical horn but I can say it works extremely well, I'm very happy with the result and it does exactly what I intended. The speaker sounds like an excellent full-range driver with full frequency extension, the ability to play at much higher SPLs and a much better polar response.

I'm well aware of directivity matching but when your mid horn covers down to 400 Hz it doesn't matter anymore. Also, you'd need a big woofer for it's directivity to narrow by 400 Hz!

IMO the issue with these kind of speakers, either full-range driver or compression driver, is driver quality. Very few CDs or full range drivers sound good imo, but the ones that do beat out traditional cone 'n' domes for my tastes.

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beaur said:

As a someone who has space but not currently the budget for a large horn, I do agree that driver quality is important but only to a point. The 555 is a good example. You get all sorts of advice when you mention that you would like a speaker based around the 555. Many say only the original (with original diaphram) will do, others say GIP is better etc. As my budget may never stretch to the "originals" or even top quality repros, I have looked at modern copies like LM and a few other small shops. Reality hits when totalling the cost up and the driver seems to be the only real source of compromise when you can't DIY in a timeframe that makes sense.

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I agree, some vintage and repro CDs can be incredibly expensive! I'm no CD expert but have heard a few and the Radian CDs with Be diaphragms are quite good without breaking the bank. With my speaker, you don't get the extremely high sensitivity and high SPL capabilities of a CD with a full length horn but it is much better suited for most domestic spaces, and exactly the opposite of a big multi-way horn system in that it's easy and forgiving to setup. The main midrange horn is also closer in character to a direct radiator bass section, part of the issue of achieving a seamless match is that the drivers sound the same, i.e. have the same kinds of distortions, and if the drivers are using the same diaphragm material it's easier and works out better. My woofer and mid driver both use very similar paper cones. Because of this it was not easy to find a tweeter that's a good match but the Fostex T500 made for a perfect match. Most others had resonances that clash with the sound of the mids.

kodomo said:

Well, as I stated earlier, it takes a lot of time tuning your speakers and your room. Horns, although have great directivity and this is an advantage, whatever you do, you will still be listening to your room. I am redoing my room as of now and will have better response with less dips and boosts and more even and controlled decay in bass and better imaging as opposing walls be symmetrically on both of my speakers. Still, my current response is within the +-5db range from 18hz to 20khz which is quite good and will be +-3b with the current changes I am doing to my room. Any room response within in a 10db window is good and in between 15db is still acceptable. Less than 10db difference and evenly controlled decay means a reference response to me. My 220hz boost will be solved as well as the one in 65hz (that boost will go down to 58hz in the new room dimensions but will be absorbed) and I will be close to my idea of a reference room. This is also not a completely dedicated room, as it is the main room of our house. I did have a room like that when I had my music studio but thats another story. My other half loves music and appreciates my hobby especially after me building my own speaker system, now she likes me spending tuning and upgrading the sound, even likes me measuring it trying to set up all kind of contrapments I come up with Not to stray too far... Modern understanding and application of horns can be very good and will have a signature dynamic but not the fatiguing sound they were remembered for. Being a non-fatiguing system is one of the most I hear from other listeners who come to my space to listen.

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Kodomo, your setup reminds me of Romy the cat's. You even have the cats! Nice.

DaveC said:

I agree, some vintage and repro CDs can be incredibly expensive! I'm no CD expert but have heard a few and the Radian CDs with Be diaphragms are quite good without breaking the bank. With my speaker, you don't get the extremely high sensitivity and high SPL capabilities of a CD with a full length horn but it is much better suited for most domestic spaces, and exactly the opposite of a big multi-way horn system in that it's easy and forgiving to setup. The main midrange horn is also closer in character to a direct radiator bass section, part of the issue of achieving a seamless match is that the drivers sound the same, i.e. have the same kinds of distortions, and if the drivers are using the same diaphragm material it's easier and works out better. My woofer and mid driver both use very similar paper cones. Because of this it was not easy to find a tweeter that's a good match but the Fostex T500 made for a perfect match. Most others had resonances that clash with the sound of the mids.

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I am with you on the Radians. I use 2" and 1" Radians with Be diaphragms and a fostex t500amkII playing above of them. For me not just the cost but the tone and neutrality of the Radian which has beaten TAD 4001, and BMS 4592nd-mid in my horn with my intended bandwidth and relevant/adjacent horns. Maybe 4001 works better with the td-4001 horn. However the 2003 was a great 1"

I made a small trick I got from Earl Geddes on my 1400hz JMLC flare horn with the 1" radian 475be that works between roughly from 5000hz to 10000hz. I put reticulated open cell foam in the small horn. I tried different densities of it. I found out 30ppi fitted the best (the same Geddes uses afaik). It has been over a year and they stay where they are. I tried with other channels as experimentation but this channel with 30ppi foam made the best difference without any other detrimental effects.

DaveC said:

I agree, some vintage and repro CDs can be incredibly expensive! I'm no CD expert but have heard a few and the Radian CDs with Be diaphragms are quite good without breaking the bank. With my speaker, you don't get the extremely high sensitivity and high SPL capabilities of a CD with a full length horn but it is much better suited for most domestic spaces, and exactly the opposite of a big multi-way horn system in that it's easy and forgiving to setup. The main midrange horn is also closer in character to a direct radiator bass section, part of the issue of achieving a seamless match is that the drivers sound the same, i.e. have the same kinds of distortions, and if the drivers are using the same diaphragm material it's easier and works out better. My woofer and mid driver both use very similar paper cones. Because of this it was not easy to find a tweeter that's a good match but the Fostex T500 made for a perfect match. Most others had resonances that clash with the sound of the mids.

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Hi dave

Can you show a picture of your very interesting horns?
From your description, I imagine they could look similar to the totaldac 150 speakers

Here's some pics of the drivers... the complete speaker is still a rough prototype so I will refrain from showing it until the final prototype is done. This shouldn't take too much longer, the design is close to done. I've been working on this speaker for a long time but figuring out the best way to get it to market and what form it should be in has been much moire difficult than designing the speaker... at least for me!

It is close to the TotalDAC speaker in concept. IMO, his throat is a bit too large in diameter and it probably can't produce much quality output over ~15 kHz, but I do think this overall concept makes a lot of sense for many domestic applications. My primary goal is the preservation of harmonic content and fine detail, which leads to an enveloping 3-D soundstage that is difficult to achieve in many systems, much harder in a cone 'n' dome system for alot of reasons which I'm sure you're aware of.

Midrange driver prototype... this is close to it's finished form. It has some unique treatments that prevent diaphragm resonances, it's very clean and resolving and sounds the same at very low to fairly high SPLs.



Woofer... this is the Acoustic Elegance TD15H+ and is the best woofer I've ever heard.



And the ever-popular Fostex T500...

I have always been drawn to horns ever since my late teens when I first heard a pair of Klipsch LaScallas. Sure they were colored and didn't go real deep in the bass but the punch and cleanliness with which they could play rock music at high levels was totally appealing. Later after I went "audiophile" I could never live with the coloration that I heard when trying the same speakers again after a decade of planar mania (AudioStatic, Stax, Infinity IRS Beta, Apogee, Acoustat (3 different pairs). The coherence and purity of planars would now have to be part of any future speaker vocabulary and I was no longer willing to trade purity and lack of coloration and coherence for a gain in dynamics. Any advance in dynamics would have to be with a speaker that was at least as good where the best planars I had excel.

An experience in 2004 (or 2005) shocked me into awareness that horns had taken a big leap since I had heard them last. Specifically, I heard a show demo where a pair of Odeon No.32s were playing with an all Einstein rig...that blew me away and stuck in the back of my mind even during the planar mania.


A move to London and a small apartment had me selling off my planar monsters and looking for a 2-way "bookshelf" speaker. Given my memory of the Odeons, I went for the little bookshelf Odeon Orfeo, which has a horn loaded tweeter. Great little speaker. A move back to Switzerland and a quest began for speakers with the dynamics of horns and the purity of the best planars...I tried an older Genesis (model VI)...nope. Then I tried Reference 3A...closer but not quite...the purity was pretty close and the liveliness excellent for a non-horn design but still not there. Then an opportunity came up to audition a pair of Odeon "La Boheme" speakers. I had never heard of them before but saw they were a full horn design, unlike the 32s, which have a more or less conventional vented bass box. The audition was impressive and I shortly thereafter took home the Odeons I own today. Resolution, dynamics, coherence and a subtlety that is hard to match. Low coloration and superb transparency are also strong traits for this speaker. The one real weakness of the system, not terribly deep bass, is offset but the amazingly good punch and drive in the mid and upper bass.

I also have smaller Odeon Rigolettos, which are fine for the casual duty they are recruited into performing, but do not get there like the big ones do...not by a long way other than superb bass articulation.

I have finally heard a few single driver speakers (both horn loaded and not) that can sound really excellent but still ultimately flawed. The closest is the Decware HDT, which I now also own and these are really smooth and resolving but not totally uncolored. Close to a wall they do really surprising bass and not even a horn loaded design at that! Still, a sub gets them most of the rest of the way and I suspect a good supertweeter would make a superb 3-way design, LOL.

Of course, there are other modern horn designs that are superb and worthy of being ultimate system candidates.

I personally haven't heard a DIY horn that was anywhere as good as the best from professional designers. Horns are really tough to get right and require a lot of experience to truly nail down, IMO. Of course copying a successful design is probably the right strategy for a good woodworker but novice in the ways of speaker design...

I will likely stick with horns since I have heard convincing designs that were not as big as a house and to get comparable dynamics from a planar requires it to be truly massive. You don't need giant Cessaro or AG trios with 3 bass horns to get realistic sound from a well designed horn.

j.phelan said:

They shout, they 'honk', they have pronounced coloration. Not true anymore -they're the fastest growing audiophile speaker today. If we include the waveguide-style horn. A growing list of reviewers have them in their systems.

Waveguides: Devore Organgutan, GedLee, Amphion, Tannoy, ATC, Emerald Physics, Spatial. Most of these are 93-96db except Tannoy (low 90s) and ATC (high 80s).

Horns reviewed (in recent years): Avantguarde, Acapella, Sadurni, Volti, Burwell+Sons, Soundquest, JBL, PureAudioProject (compression-driver model). Some of these co. had more than one review -all getting BIG thumbs up.

U.S. show reports (no review): Amps & Sound, Classic, Exemplar, Cessaro, The Natural Sound, Swan Song, Destination, Viking, Pi., AudioKinesis.

If the Munich show reports are any indication, horns are here to stay. Stein music (Germany) now makes horns -but who would have thought THIS would happen:

www.totaldac.com/d150-speaker-eng.htm

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Hi all,
I'am a lucky guy... these Totaldac d150 speakers are mine since few weeks, absolutely stunning !!!.
i'am just, now, waiting for their sub with the EASpeakers TD18H+ with appolo upgrade.

Be well

et hop ! my two best speakers, big and small !

I know Ked has fairly strong views on these, but any other opinions/experiences of Sadurni horns?
Either the original flagships $45k Staccatos, or newer $25k Miracolis?

spiritofmusic said:

I know Ked has fairly strong views on these, but any other opinions/experiences of Sadurni horns?
Either the original flagships $45k Staccatos, or newer $25k Miracolis?

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I've heard from fellow 5One2 Audio buds that the Sadurnis are quite good. Located near Austin, I plan to hear them this month, hopefully.

Hello,

You guys are lucky putting new speakers in the room and get fantastic sound the first start.
When I first replaced my YG Sonia with Gamma II, it was a disappointment. In fact, I was shaking my head and thought what I was doing to myself..hahaha.
Took me no less than 6 months to get the sound I am enjoying right now. It is amazing how a pair of 7' tall each with a meter wide horn, plus two pair of 16" bass drivers backload horns facing right at you can completely get out of the way when music is played.

Congratulation to all who get superb sound from their horn right at the first day.

Tang

sbo6, please report back. Ked’s report was pretty lukewarm on the Sadurnis to say the least.
Are you planning to hear both models?

spiritofmusic said:

sbo6, please report back. Ked’s report was pretty lukewarm on the Sadurnis to say the least.
Are you planning to hear both models?

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You should also check with Marty

I did.

spiritofmusic said:

sbo6, please report back. Ked’s report was pretty lukewarm on the Sadurnis to say the least.
Are you planning to hear both models?

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I need to get with Jorge to see if we can visit him over the holiday break. Work has been nuts so hopefully I have some time. Whatever he has at his disposal I'll listen to. I know several folks heard his speakers at another meet and were impressed. Will be glad to report back.

Still absolutely loving my Animas.

Mani.

manisandher said:

Still absolutely loving my Animas.

Mani.

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Nice.

Tango said:

Hello,

You guys are lucky putting new speakers in the room and get fantastic sound the first start.
When I first replaced my YG Sonia with Gamma II, it was a disappointment. In fact, I was shaking my head and thought what I was doing to myself..hahaha.
Took me no less than 6 months to get the sound I am enjoying right now. It is amazing how a pair of 7' tall each with a meter wide horn, plus two pair of 16" bass drivers backload horns facing right at you can completely get out of the way when music is played.

Congratulation to all who get superb sound from their horn right at the first day.

Tang

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Could you please highlight what kinds of things you did to finally get an excellent sound from the Gammas? I had only a bit of positioning to do with my Odeons (admittedly a MUCH smaller horn system) to get great sound.

bonzo75 said:

Nice.

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If you're ever in the Warwickshire area...

Mani.