Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

Mike Lavigne · Jan 11, 2018

PeterA said:
Mike, once you have exhausted your search for SOTA components, SOTA isolation, grounding devices, power delivery, and room development, what is left? You seem close to reaching a point where there is nothing more to buy or to upgrade. Have you contemplated what the next few years might bring to your system development? Given your interest in exploration and sharing your progress, could you be content to just enjoy and listen having reached the end of your journey? Or are you confident that something will come along and be the next game changing product to capture your interest?

you ask me these deep questions Peter. to even try to respond, i'd have to point out that there are no singular/absolute answers to concepts of last/best/done. we don't have crystal balls, or control our own wandering spirits. and talking about what i'm doing that I view as ultimate is just for me, i'm not trying to project that to others. there are multiple different sonic viewpoints which would have far different directions than the way I've gone.

there are planned moves, and moves that somehow are thrust upon you. in the planning category, for sure the room and the digital have been main focuses over the last few years in a planned way. I was not satisfied with either three years ago, and now i'm totally satisfied. as I sit here today, there are not changes I can see that would happen. my amps will be upgraded to the 468 level from the 458 level in the next year (in darTZeel years context). but otherwise that's it. the MSB and SGM will get their upgrades from time to time. happy with my Studer's and King Cello. can't even imagine what would need to change there.

I had no plans to upgrade to the Tripoint Elite, but that just fell out of the sky on me. happy I did. but cannot see any other grounding or power grid moves happening.

this turntable thing was not planned, but I had heard the magic at David's and then there it was to grab. so now i'm in the middle of that. and I sit here this morning listening to the NVS sound so amazing i'm trying to realize it will be with it's new owner within a month. how will this all end? don't know. arms? carts? other tt's?

I thought I was done with uber isolation. but I lit a fire under Ed and he and Emile have done their work and so now here this is. and it's so profound i'm totally sucked into where it is going. this door has opened I never saw coming. and my stumbling onto the Hardpoint footers did seem to push things higher too all around, but that was also not planned.

I am hungry to be on the other side of these current things i'm in the middle of, and just listen. and forget about the reproduction chain, and think about music. and be done. I see others messing with multiple tt's, arm's and cart's and that looks fun. will I dive into that once these other things are settled? I don't really know. that is the only thing that is in the back of my mind......messing with other vinyl related gear for the fun of it. I can tell you that if I add up my acquisitions in the last year it's enough to stop my heart. this is likely my last hurrah.

check back with me in 18 months and let's see where this all ended up. I can only say how it looks right now.

ddk · Jan 11, 2018

EuroDriver said:
Peter
Rockitman's AVI test's test show that the SQ improvement delivered by the 35 dB reduction in sub 120 Hz vibration is swamped by the higher noise floor in the frequencies above 120 Hz and the smearing that is occurring in the MF and HF range which is being delivered by the "industrial" power supply

EuroDriver said:
Marc,

What Christian's experience shows is that AVI's supported by that particular steel worktable, and fed by the standard industrial LPS which is neither ground noise nor airborne controlled delivers a muddy MH and HF

I think we can be pretty confident that scaling up from Mikes NVS on Tana experience that a Tana cast chassis anti-vibration unit with ground and airborne noise controlled LPS can deliver a significantly positive result

There's no smearing of any kind happening and the AVI is performing the job it was designed to do, ie "Dampening" perfectly; and that's exactly what we hear a deader sound! The presumption here seems to be that all resonance, natural or otherwise has a negative impact on sound and must be somehow sucked out, guess what you're sucking the life out of the sound with it. There are people who like that kind of sound which is fine with me but don't prescribe it as a cure all and think just because someone else doesn't want that deadness needs a change in dosage.

david

EuroDriver · Jan 11, 2018

ddk said:
There's no smearing of any kind happening and the AVI is performing the job it was designed to do, ie "Dampening" perfectly; and that's exactly what we hear a deader sound! The presumption here seems to be that all resonance, natural or otherwise has a negative impact on sound and must be somehow sucked out, guess what you're sucking the life out of the sound with it. There are people who like that kind of sound which is fine with me but don't prescribe it as a cure all and think just because someone else doesn't want that deadness needs a change in dosage.

david

David,

I am absolutely in the same camp about not wanting to suck the life out of the music.

The AVI and TS reduce vibrations significantly 120 Hz and below by about 35 dB. A nice job, but hardly perfect

Above the 120 Hz the AVI's and TS's don't do a lot to dampen but they can deliver a negative effect by injecting medium and high frequency noise and I am pretty confident this is what is going on.

The LPS for the Tana /TS actually has a chassis bottom plate machined from solid copper. Why do we do that ? We hear the nice copper sound signature compared to a base plate of aluminium. That's an indication how much the transducers in a Table can affect the sound

Best Regards,

Edward

Steve Williams · Jan 11, 2018

from what I have been reading in this thread and others is that the Herzan which some users lauded as a panacea for excellent sound suddenly became aware that there were deficiencies in the power supply which Herzan provides to its end users. Now along comes a solution to create an envelope around the power supply because the existing power supply causes muddying of the MF and HF. This only makes me wonder what users were hearing before. Christian convinced himself very quickly that the Herzan he bought sucked the ambient sound out of his system and quickly decided that active does not work with the AS 2000.

I am reminded that the Herzan was never designed for audio use and now solutions are brought forward to yet try to improve the sound. I tend to agree with David that a loss of ambient sound with a dead effect. FWIW the largest company in the world that makes these active devices for use under electron microscopes has told a member here who made inquiries about using their devices in his system was advised against it for the very reason that users here are tending to agree about, namely that the table is always moving as it searches for a neutral spot. It is this constant movement that from what I have read that results in this deadened sound. I'm struggling to come to grips with the solution offered here especially with Christian and David's immediate conclusion that active under the AS2000 was counter productive. Their findings had nothing to do with the power supply but a very quick experiment rather proved that active isolation is counterproductive. Someone help me understand how the power supply solution will solve the problem that David and Christian quickly discovered when active was engaged

Maybe you found the juice to make this work for you Mike but there are lot's reading here that are wondering how this will solve the active isolation issue

PeterA · Jan 11, 2018

ddk said:
There's no smearing of any kind happening and the AVI is performing the job it was designed to do, ie "Dampening" perfectly; and that's exactly what we hear a deader sound! The presumption here seems to be that all resonance, natural or otherwise has a negative impact on sound and must be somehow sucked out, guess what you're sucking the life out of the sound with it. There are people who like that kind of sound which is fine with me but don't prescribe it as a cure all and think just because someone else doesn't want that deadness needs a change in dosage.

david

David, I read your posts on this subject and appreciate the clarity and straight forward thinking. In the end, you seem to follow what your ears tell you is natural sounding, and I respect that approach. I have spent the last few days experimenting with a "miracle" material meant to dampen "sympathetic" resonances from equipment. On the strong recommendation of an audio friend, I took his advice and inserted small pads of E.A.R. Isodamp material under each of the footers of my electronic gear. He is adamant about the improvements he hears in his system. In fact we have the same phono stage and this is where he suggested I try the stuff first. I tried it for a couple of days and then invited another audio buddy over last night to listen and evaluate the effect. We listened to some music. We then removed all 24 little pieces from under my six components, and wow, the system came back to life. Resolution improved, timbre was more accurate, music was more engaging, and everything instantly sounded more natural and real.

This was interesting because I had been under the impression that reducing resonances could only be a good thing. This really woke me up. I think you are on to something with your comments about "sucking the life out of the sound." This too was my experience, except in this case, these pads lso increased fatigue and distortion, and high frequency artifacts. We did not hear a "dull" sound, but rather a blurred, distorted sound. They did rob the system of life, but it became more blurred, less focused, less real.

Interestingly, the metal top plates of my Pass amps ring when tapped with a metal stick. Simply placing a few of these Isodamp scraps on the top of each amp COMPLETELY eliminated the ringing. It was like magic, like turning off a switch. But under the component footers, boy, it was not good.

This stuff and all isolation solutions needs to be played with. Effects seem different in different systems, and sometimes, as you describe, they are only detrimental to the overall sound. It is noteworthy that Mike is having a completely different experience in his system with active isolation, admittedly under different equipment. And then, we have our own personal preferences to contend with. Your recent comments about active isolation in this particular application seem worth considering because you are describing what you actually hear, not some theoretical benefit of what might be. Mike is also describing what he hears.

I think one must simply try things in his own system to be sure it is what he wants to hear.

ddk · Jan 11, 2018

EuroDriver said:
David,

I am absolutely in the same camp about not wanting to suck the life out of the music.

The AVI and TS reduce vibrations significantly 120 Hz and below by about 35 dB. A nice job, but hardly perfect

Above the 120 Hz the AVI's and TS's don't do a lot to dampen but they can deliver a negative effect by injecting medium and high frequency noise and I am pretty confident this is what is going on.

The LPS for the Tana /TS actually has a chassis bottom plate machined from solid copper. Why do we do that ? We hear the nice copper sound signature compared to a base plate of aluminium. That's an indication how much the transducers in a Table can affect the sound

Best Regards,

Edward

Edward,

It doesn't mean that nothing above 120hz isn't affected either, besides altering the resonance frequency of any part of the spectrum will have a direct affect on everything. There will be a difference in sound when using different materials copper, steel, aluminum etc. anyway without the active section, that's a given! All you're doing with copper is switching resonance frequency to taste, that's all and what we do with stainless in place of aluminum. With active you're taking a sledge hammer to indiscriminately attack the sound without even identifying a problem first, this is why it doesn't work for me and why entire concept is flawed.

david

ddk · Jan 11, 2018

PeterA said:
David, I read your posts on this subject and appreciate the clarity and straight forward thinking. In the end, you seem to follow what your ears tell you is natural sounding, and I respect that approach. I have spent the last few days experimenting with a "miracle" material meant to dampen "sympathetic" resonances from equipment. On the strong recommendation of an audio friend, I took his advice and inserted small pads of E.A.R. Isodamp material under each of the footers of my electronic gear. He is adamant about the improvements he hears in his system. In fact we have the same phono stage and this is where he suggested I try the stuff first. I tried it for a couple of days and then invited another audio buddy over last night to listen and evaluate the effect. We listened to some music. We then removed all 24 little pieces from under my six components, and wow, the system came back to life. Resolution improved, timbre was more accurate, music was more engaging, and everything instantly sounded more natural and real.

This was interesting because I had been under the impression that reducing resonances could only be a good thing. This really woke me up. I think you are on to something with your comments about "sucking the life out of the sound." This too was my experience, except in this case, these pads lso increased fatigue and distortion, and high frequency artifacts. We did not hear a "dull" sound, but rather a blurred, distorted sound. They did rob the system of life, but it became more blurred, less focused, less real.

Interestingly, the metal top plates of my Pass amps ring when tapped with a metal stick. Simply placing a few of these Isodamp scraps on the top of each amp COMPLETELY eliminated the ringing. It was like magic, like turning off a switch. But under the component footers, boy, it was not good.

This stuff and all isolation solutions needs to be played with. Effects seem different in different systems, and sometimes, as you describe, they are only detrimental to the overall sound. It is noteworthy that Mike is having a completely different experience in his system with active isolation, admittedly under different equipment. And then, we have our own personal preferences to contend with. Your recent comments about active isolation in this particular application seem worth considering because you are describing what you actually hear, not some theoretical benefit of what might be. Mike is also describing what he hears.

I think one must simply try things in his own system to be sure it is what he wants to hear.

Peter,

Music is emotion and for me the role of a system, high end or otherwise is get the hell out of the way of the Music, but each to his own. Thank you for your comments this is exactly what I've been trying to communicate in these threads, take a step back and listen to the music your ears and nature are the only measuring devices that matter in this case.

david

Steve Williams · Jan 11, 2018

I think one must simply try things in his own system to be sure it is what he wants to hear.

it's called an A-B-A test, and very simple to do

caliaripaolo · Jan 11, 2018

EuroDriver said:
The AVI and TS reduce vibrations significantly 120 Hz and below by about 35 dB. A nice job, but hardly perfect

Above the 120 Hz the AVI's and TS's don't do a lot to dampen but they can deliver a negative effect by injecting medium and high frequency noise and I am pretty confident this is what is going on.

I'm quite interested to the subject and I'm trying to understand if adding an active table into some part of my system may result on a positive effect.
I do not understand why you stated that the TS inject some sort of noise at MF or HF.
Reading on specs I find:

Dynamic 0.7 Hz to 200 Hz, mainly passive at higher frequencies although for good stability the feedback is active to at least 2 kHz

and more:
The systems offer excellent isolation in the typical laboratory environment. The maximum vibration amplitude that can be compensated is frequency dependent, reflecting the fact that in typical environments the amplitudes decrease rapidly at higher frequencies. Up to 20Hz amplitudes of 20?m can be compensated in all directions. At higher frequencies the maximum correction amplitude decreases inversely proportional to frequency, corresponding to a maximum correction velocity of 2.5mm/s.

So the better result is achieved for mechanical type vibrations, such as those generated by low frequencies, which makes me thinking that no noise due to induced resonances can be "injected" at M & HF.

EuroDriver · Jan 11, 2018

ddk said:
Edward,

It doesn't mean that nothing above 120hz isn't affected either, besides altering the resonance frequency of any part of the spectrum will have a direct affect on everything. There will be a difference in sound when using different materials copper, steel, aluminum etc. anyway without the active section, that's a given! All you're doing with copper is switching resonance frequency to taste, that's all and what we do with stainless in place of aluminum. With active you're taking a sledge hammer to indiscriminately attack the sound without even identifying a problem first, this is why it doesn't work for me and why entire concept is flawed.

david

David,

I enjoy your characterization of active anti-vibration as a Sledgehammer ! Indeed we have been trying to refine the "sledgehammer" and minimize the collateral damage ;-)

I very much look forward to hearing the AS-2000 in the coming months

Best

Edward

EuroDriver · Jan 11, 2018

caliaripaolo said:
I'm quite interested to the subject and I'm trying to understand if adding an active table into some part of my system may result on a positive effect.
I do not understand why you stated that the TS inject some sort of noise at MF or HF.
Reading on specs I find:

Dynamic 0.7 Hz to 200 Hz, mainly passive at higher frequencies although for good stability the feedback is active to at least 2 kHz

and more:
The systems offer excellent isolation in the typical laboratory environment. The maximum vibration amplitude that can be compensated is frequency dependent, reflecting the fact that in typical environments the amplitudes decrease rapidly at higher frequencies. Up to 20Hz amplitudes of 20?m can be compensated in all directions. At higher frequencies the maximum correction amplitude decreases inversely proportional to frequency, corresponding to a maximum correction velocity of 2.5mm/s.

So the better result is achieved for mechanical type vibrations, such as those generated by low frequencies, which makes me thinking that no noise due to induced resonances can be "injected" at M & HF.

Hi Paolo,

The piezoelectric transducers are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations over a broad frequency range. The analog electronics tune and filter the mechanical movement signal from the sensors and then deliver an optimized signal voltage to the transducers to achieve the - 35 dB reduction at below 120 Hz. Significant attenuation does occur from 200 Hz and lower, but its quite a bit less than 35 dB achieved from 120 Hz and lower.

There is MF and HF noise signal generated from the set up but its pretty free of spikes and broadly distributed. What we did not expect to discover was how vibration sensitive linear power supplies are, and that these low signal level vibration would induced voltage deviations could have such influence on the sound. When we aggressive took measures to reduce ripple and vibration, we achieved a SQ uplift from DAC's sitting on the Tana that truly surprised us.

From the limited testing that has been done, seems that TT's like the NVS benefit very significantly as well. However when it comes to TT's, as always YMMV and it is pretty system dependent.

We have tested a lot of DAC's, preamps (passive and active), power amps solid state and tube, and in almost all cases there has been a very nice uplift in SQ.

What is also very interesting for us were the results Christian got by placing his Tape Deck on the AVI setup

It's very difficult to reduce low frequency ground borne vibrations with passive measures, and the results achieved by passive measures are a much smaller order of magnitude than the - 35 dB achieved by competent active systems.

microstrip · Jan 11, 2018

PeterA said:
(...) Interestingly, the metal top plates of my Pass amps ring when tapped with a metal stick. Simply placing a few of these Isodamp scraps on the top of each amp COMPLETELY eliminated the ringing. (...)

Peter,
A mechanical component in resonance can absorb energy at that specific frequency. Damping it can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on situation. See what happens when we have all the answers: http://roanokefootandankle.com/Turntable/Turntable.htm . (David, please take an antihistamine before reading the section on the platter

)

Steve Williams · Jan 11, 2018

EuroDriver said:
Hi Paolo,

The piezoelectric transducers are very sensitive to voltage fluctuations over a broad frequency range. The analog electronics tune and filter the mechanical movement signal from the sensors and then deliver an optimized signal voltage to the transducers to achieve the - 35 dB reduction at below 120 Hz. Significant attenuation does occur from 200 Hz and lower, but its quite a bit less than 35 dB achieved from 120 Hz and lower.

There is MF and HF noise signal generated from the set up but its pretty free of spikes and broadly distributed. What we did not expect to discover was how vibration sensitive linear power supplies are, and that these low signal level vibration would induced voltage deviations could have such influence on the sound. When we aggressive took measures to reduce ripple and vibration, we achieved a SQ uplift from DAC's sitting on the Tana that truly surprised us.

From the limited testing that has been done, seems that TT's like the NVS benefit very significantly as well. However when it comes to TT's, as always YMMV and it is pretty system dependent.

We have tested a lot of DAC's, preamps (passive and active), power amps solid state and tube, and in almost all cases there has been a very nice uplift in SQ.

What is also very interesting for us were the results Christian got by placing his Tape Deck on the AVI setup

It's very difficult to reduce low frequency ground borne vibrations with passive measures, and the results achieved by passive measures are a much smaller order of magnitude than the - 35 dB achieved by competent active systems.

Hi Ed

Is the inference to be made that the smearing of the sound and loss of ambience is not due to the active table always being in motion as it seeks its neutral spot but rather due to the power supply and its MF and HF deficiencies?

EuroDriver · Jan 11, 2018

Steve Williams said:
Hi Ed

Is the inference to be made that the smearing of the sound and loss of ambience is not due to the active table always being in motion as it seeks its neutral spot but rather due to the power supply and its MF and HF deficiencies?

Steve,

Yes, that's what our testing and observational data points lead us to conclude

Best

Ed

Mike Lavigne · Jan 11, 2018

Steve Williams said:
Hi Ed

Is the inference to be made that the smearing of the sound and loss of ambience is not due to the active table always being in motion as it seeks its neutral spot but rather due to the power supply and its MF and HF deficiencies?

maybe read this post.

the question is whether the resonance sourced from the AS-2000 itself is essential to the positive aspects of it's performance. and if active defeats that resonance what are the performance consequences. will the better performance of the Taiko Tana approach and the TS design verses the AVI design cause a net gain over an untreated AS-2000?

listening to my dd NVS tt clearly it's a big net gain. does the out board motor and belt play a role in the difference due to the need for the solidity of the motor base? will compensating for the resonance in that motor box remove life from the AS-2000? these are questions going through my mind right now trying to decide to do the Taiko Tana TS-300 for the AS-2000.

PeterA · Jan 11, 2018

microstrip said:
Peter,
A mechanical component in resonance can absorb energy at that specific frequency. Damping it can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on situation. See what happens when we have all the answers: http://roanokefootandankle.com/Turntable/Turntable.htm . (David, please take an antihistamine before reading the section on the platter )

Fascinating project. Did you ever hear the finished turntable?

ddk · Jan 11, 2018

microstrip said:
See what happens when we have all the answers: http://roanokefootandankle.com/Turntable/Turntable.htm . (David, please take an antihistamine before reading the section on the platter )

I've heard that 3rd and 4th hand account of such things specially without any actual physical experience can be invaluable, please tell us about what happened!

david

ack · Jan 11, 2018

PeterA said:
David, I read your posts on this subject and appreciate the clarity and straight forward thinking. In the end, you seem to follow what your ears tell you is natural sounding, and I respect that approach. I have spent the last few days experimenting with a "miracle" material meant to dampen "sympathetic" resonances from equipment. On the strong recommendation of an audio friend, I took his advice and inserted small pads of E.A.R. Isodamp material under each of the footers of my electronic gear. He is adamant about the improvements he hears in his system. In fact we have the same phono stage and this is where he suggested I try the stuff first. I tried it for a couple of days and then invited another audio buddy over last night to listen and evaluate the effect. We listened to some music. We then removed all 24 little pieces from under my six components, and wow, the system came back to life. Resolution improved, timbre was more accurate, music was more engaging, and everything instantly sounded more natural and real.

If sympathetic mechanical vibrations improve a system - to a wow point - you may have a serious problem; if you or others think overdamping can be a problem, look at what Magico is doing and to what effect.

microstrip · Jan 11, 2018

PeterA said:
Fascinating project. Did you ever hear the finished turntable?

No, and never heard about it. I have only posted it only because of the style and the fact that it uses a lead platter damped by sorbothane - surely ultra damped!!! No single phonon can escape!!!

microstrip · Jan 11, 2018

ack said:
If sympathetic mechanical vibrations improve a system - to a wow point - you may have a serious problem; if you or others think overdamping can be a problem, look at what Magico is doing and to what effect.

I can't remember where I read it and whom said it, but I have read that Magico does not pot their crossovers because it would overdamp them! Perhaps Magico owners can give us feedback on the subject.

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