Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

ddk · Jan 15, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
.

as a 44 year married (to the same woman) guy, I am faithful by nature.

the AS-2000 itself does tend to push you into multiple arms and cartridges, which pushes you into multiple phono stages too. so the NVS going away still actually will leave me with more choices. but only one tt.

but no doubt getting deep into multiple tt's again looks like fun once I get past this next stage.

will I ever post about a wooden box full 10 vintage cartridges? maybe. it's cool stuff to be sure.

With your curious nature I’ll give you a month before you fill up that box Mike!

david

jazdoc · Jan 15, 2018

ddk said:
With your curious nature I’ll give you a month before you fill up that box Mike!

david

I'll take that action!

microstrip · Jan 15, 2018

As soon as we enter a system having feedback only our imagination limits explanations to possible problems and its solutions.

The active table compensates for acoustic feedback of the speakers, sending electrical pulses that are correlated with the audio signal, but distorted and delayed in time. Feedback of this type was known to be particularly audible - it is why people use active devices to avoid it!

Switched power supplies are intrinsically RF generators, with a broad variable spectra, but correlated with load - may people forget this aspect. Some part of this noise can be collected by unexpected paths our audio systems - affecting sound quality with a time delayed feedback. Perhaps it is why these tables seem to be so sensitive to power supplies when used for high-end audio purposes, and perform perfectly in labs with standard switching supplies.

If by any reason the difference between power supplies is just motivated by noise being picked by the sensors it should be very easy to measure just monitoring and comparing the signals of the actuators with different power supplies.

Just a few thoughts from someone who does not have any experience with active tables.

ddk · Jan 15, 2018

microstrip said:
As soon as we enter a system having feedback only our imagination limits explanations to possible problems and its solutions.

What?

microstrip said:
The active table compensates for acoustic feedback of the speakers, sending electrical pulses that are correlated with the audio signal, but distorted and delayed in time. Feedback of this type was known to be particularly audible - it is why people use active devices to avoid it!

How is do they do compensate for that feedback (assuming it's there to begin with) specially if it's picked up by the cartridge?

microstrip said:
Switched power supplies are intrinsically RF generators, with a broad variable spectra, but correlated with load - may people forget this aspect. Some part of this noise can be collected by unexpected paths our audio systems - affecting sound quality with a time delayed feedback. Perhaps it is why these tables seem to be so sensitive to power supplies when used for high-end audio purposes, and perform perfectly in labs with standard switching supplies.

Time delayed feedback, WHAT are you talking about? The effects heard at Chris's has nothing to do with ps noise, the AVI is doing exactly what it was supposed to do, it's the dampening wether piezo electric or mechanical which is detrimental to the sound, the effect is the same a layer of sorbothane or even butcher blocks under equipment, that's not ps noise which is a very different artifact.

microstrip said:
If by any reason the difference between power supplies is just motivated by noise being picked by the sensors it should be very easy to measure just monitoring and comparing the signals of the actuators with different power supplies.

Just a few thoughts from someone who does not have any experience with active tables.

Noooo, really

? I think it's time for a nice vacation to clear the head Francisco...

david

Mike Lavigne · Jan 15, 2018

ddk said:
.......Time delayed feedback, WHAT are you talking about? The effects heard at Chris's has nothing to do with ps noise, the AVI is doing exactly what it was supposed to do, it's the dampening wether piezo electric or mechanical which is detrimental to the sound, the effect is the same a layer of sorbothane or even butcher blocks under equipment, that's not ps noise which is a very different artifact......

we really don't know how effectively the AVI unit is doing these things. we don't know how much the power supply might be the problem. we don't know about how much the NDW table itself and the AVI casework might be influencing the result. I respect that you can guess about what the cause of what you heard is, but at best it's an educated guess based on admittedly zero prior active isolation experience.

we do have some testing by Taiko regarding how the AVI units work compared to the TS units; which mostly refutes your guessing but is still not definitive.

microstrip · Jan 15, 2018

ddk said:
What?

How is do they do compensate for that feedback (assuming it's there to begin with) specially if it's picked up by the cartridge?

Time delayed feedback, WHAT are you talking about? The effects heard at Chris's has nothing to do with ps noise, the AVI is doing exactly what it was supposed to do, it's the dampening wether piezo electric or mechanical which is detrimental to the sound, the effect is the same a layer of sorbothane or even butcher blocks under equipment, that's not ps noise which is a very different artifact.

Noooo, really ? I think it's time for a nice vacation to clear the head Francisco...

david

David,

I am not addressing what is supposed to have happened at Chris, I was not there. I am simply addressing active tables in general and the work of Taiko on power supplies in particular. A much more interesting subject for me than just commenting a particular system with many unknowns to me and most of us.

BTW2 if you enter "Time delayed feedback" in google you get 45100 entries. Sorry if you do not know what it means, it would be nice if you could read a few before answering.

BTW2, as far as I see this thread is entitled "Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening"

ddk · Jan 15, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
we really don't know how effectively the AVI unit is doing these things. we don't know how much the power supply might be the problem. we don't know about how much the NDW table itself and the AVI casework might be influencing the result. I respect that you can guess about what the cause of what you heard is, but at best it's an educated guess based on admittedly zero prior active isolation experience.

we do have some testing by Taiko regarding how the AVI units work compared to the TS units; which mostly refutes your guessing but is still not definitive.

Mike, dampened sound is dampened sound no matter how you arrive at it. The purpose of the herzan tables is dampening, there's no question about why it sounds worse with active on they mystery is why does it sound good with passive on and not when off if nothing changes because the sounds is total crap when off as is with active on but I guess we can always discuss the definition of crap in this context because it can be subjective.

david

ddk · Jan 15, 2018

microstrip said:
David,

I am not addressing what is supposed to have happened at Chris, I was not there. I am simply addressing active tables in general and the work of Taiko on power supplies in particular. A much more interesting subject for me than just commenting a particular system with many unknowns to me and most of us.

BTW2 if you enter "Time delayed feedback" in google you get 45100 entries. Sorry if you do not know what it means, it would be nice if you could read a few before answering.

BTW2, as far as I see this thread is entitled "Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening"

Go at it, knock yourselves out

.

david

Mike Lavigne · Jan 15, 2018

ddk said:
Mike, dampened sound is dampened sound no matter how you arrive at it. The purpose of the herzan tables is dampening, there's no question about why it sounds worse with active on they mystery is why does it sound good with passive on and not when off if nothing changes because the sounds is total crap when off as is with active on but I guess we can always discuss the definition of crap in this context because it can be subjective.

david

David,

I respect that you see this as a simple answer of cause and effect.. and there is a possibility that it is that simple. but for it to be that simple, the performance of the AVI-NDW would have to have perfectly performed it's intended effect. if that was the case then I would agree with you.

based on all the variables at play I don't see it as you see it. of course; I'm living with an active device that is improving my non suspended turntable. and you have not heard that. and I relate the AVI and TS unit testing that Taiko did to my experience and make my own guess.

ddk · Jan 15, 2018

Mike Lavigne said:
David,

I respect that you see this as a simple answer of cause and effect.. and there is a possibility that it is that simple. but for it to be that simple, the performance of the AVI-NDW would have to have perfectly performed it's intended effect. if that was the case then I would agree with you.

based on all the variables at play I don't see it as you see it. of course; I'm living with an active device that is improving my non suspended turntable. and you have not heard that. and I relate the AVI and TS unit testing that Taiko did to my experience and make my own guess.

The AVI manual is pretty straight forward, center it, level it and then turn it on, cause and effect with a push of a button, the intended affect of AVI's dampened platform never had anything to do with sound. I don't see the uncertainty in this case but what happens in passive mode if nothing changes and only current is added to the system is perplexing and can be something interesting to pursue.

There's no argument that these things work as advertised and even talking to Chris he hears the same dampened sound with all of his three tts so the effect is consistent with both AVI & his platform, where you & I seem to differ is on the preference for that change in sound.

david

PeterA · Jan 15, 2018

ddk said:
Mike, dampened sound is dampened sound no matter how you arrive at it. The purpose of the herzan tables is dampening, there's no question about why it sounds worse with active on they mystery is why does it sound good with passive on and not when off if nothing changes because the sounds is total crap when off as is with active on but I guess we can always discuss the definition of crap in this context because it can be subjective.

david

David, I must have missed this. What exactly does passive ON mean with the AVI stand? If there are passive springs in the AVI units supporting the table, would they not also be engaged if the system is turned off?

I wonder if well damped springs or pneumatic devices like Stacor or my Vibraplane simply attenuate certain low frequencies and prevent them from entering the system while not actually dampening resonances within the component. Or do you think such devices also dampen the sound? Perhaps the component has its sound and a passive device only blocks floor born vibrations from entering and altering that sound. David, do you want to speculate how Christian's AS2000 would sound different from the passive ON mode if it were on a simple rigid steel platform like yours?

ddk · Jan 15, 2018

PeterA said:
David, I must have missed this. What exactly does passive ON mean with the AVI stand? If there are passive springs in the AVI units supporting the table, would they not also be engaged if the system is turned off?

I wonder if well damped springs or pneumatic devices like Stacor or my Vibraplane simply attenuate certain low frequencies and prevent them from entering the system while not actually dampening resonances within the component. Or do you think such devices also dampen the sound? Perhaps the component has its sound and a passive device only blocks floor born vibrations from entering and altering that sound. David, do you want to speculate how Christian's AS2000 would sound different from the passive ON mode if it were on a simple rigid steel platform like yours?

There are three states for the AVI, Off, Standby or Passive whatever you want to call it which sensors and lights come on and full active which is ON. The sound changes back & forth with each state of operation, Kingsrule also pointed out somewhere that his preferred mode is Passive. We wondered if there's some tightening of the springs in Passive state but the information Edward got was that nothing like that occurs, so we're wondering what's affecting the sound without any mechanical interference.

david

Taiko Audio · Jan 16, 2018

The varying results are the reason the Tana modification package exists. In passive mode the TS/AVI is just a platform supported by springs attenuating transmissibility above and amplifying at and around its resonance point. When active is engaged something happens which NO passive solution can do, the natural resonance is cancelled out by counterforce produced by the piezoelectric motors and in stead of an +15dB amplification we get a 20-40dB reduction in transmissibility.

From he TS-140/150 manual:

The blue graph is a typical representation of any passive spring-mass damper, the natural frequency of the system, is determined by the mass and the spring compliance. It decreases for a larger mass or a more compliant (softer) spring.

A simple representation:

I don't see how anyone could argue against the obvious benefits of active isolation for low frequencies. However, as the TS 150/140 graph also shows, for higher frequencies it doesn't look as pretty. This is of no concern at all for laboratory purposes. For hifi applications however it's very audible. We have been able to increase the attenuation above ~40Hz, after long experimentation, by replacing the 6mm aluminium top platter by a 10mm aluminium - 0.5mm viscoelastic - 10mm panzerholz sandwich. This by itself makes a profound difference, depending on the sensitivity of the component sitting on the table it can make the difference between preferring active on or off (please note that for Horizontal 1 and Horizontal 2 active actually performs worse then passive above ~90Hz). The other part of the equation is the powersupply, the stock smps is pretty noisy leading to a "greying" and "flattening" of sound, with active enabled its much worse then in passive mode.

Now what is being experienced by Chris in his NDW-AVI-AS setup is surely interesting but you really cannot apply this experience to the TS-140/150 with the Tana upgrade package as it's an entirely different beast.

spiritofmusic · Jan 16, 2018

I don’t know what to tell you Emile, the bass is where I first found the passive Stacore beat the active Kuraka in my direct a/b.

Taiko Audio · Jan 16, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
I don’t know what to tell you Emile, the bass is where I first found the passive Stacore beat the active Kuraka in my direct a/b.

1) suspended wooden floor, which has been discussed in exhausting lengths in other threads.
2) please reread the above post as to WHY we modified the TS-140/150.

EuroDriver · Jan 16, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
I don’t know what to tell you Taiko, the bass is where I first found the passive Stacore beat the active Kuraka in my direct a/b.

Hi Marc,

The Kuraka has a noisy power supply too !

Following your suggestion, here is the Tana LPS sitting on a Minus K

The sound quality of this system with Formula XHD > Bespoke > Pass Labs > Zu with the Bespoke sitting on top of the Formula is simply amazing. The previous arrangement of the Bespoke sitting on the Minus K was no slouch, but the introduction of the Tana with Setchi under the DAC and passive pre was jaw dropping for me. The SQ differences / my observations
- separation of individual voices and instruments
- micro detail, I think I am hearing saliva in the trumpet’s mouthpiece
- even at low volumes you feel the bass notes on your skin !
- the extraordinary body and tonality of the system

There are 2 Setchi’s, one sitting on the Formula is connected to the SPDIF input on the back panel of Formula.

The other is sitting on the board supporting the Tana stack, and connected to the BNC diagnostics socket of the Tana

By the way, this room has a suspended wood floor, but the at the volumes we were listening at it was never a problem

rockitman · Jan 16, 2018

Taiko Audio said:
I don't see how anyone could argue against the obvious benefits of active isolation for low frequencies. However, as the TS 150/140 graph also shows, for higher frequencies it doesn't look as pretty. This is of no concern at all for laboratory purposes. For hifi applications however it's very audible. We have been able to increase the attenuation above ~40Hz, after long experimentation, by replacing the 6mm aluminium top platter by a 10mm aluminium - 0.5mm viscoelastic - 10mm panzerholz sandwich. This by itself makes a profound difference, depending on the sensitivity of the component sitting on the table it can make the difference between preferring active on or off (please note that for Horizontal 1 and Horizontal 2 active actually performs worse then passive above ~90Hz). The other part of the equation is the powersupply, the stock smps is pretty noisy leading to a "greying" and "flattening" of sound, with active enabled its much worse then in passive mode.

Now what is being experienced by Chris in his NDW-AVI-AS setup is surely interesting but you really cannot apply this experience to the TS-140/150 with the Tana upgrade package as it's an entirely different beast.

Thank you for confirming what we are hearing (attenuation/dulling) with the higher frequencies in "Active" mode.

LL21 · Jan 16, 2018

fascinating to read...thanks Taiko. In the crudest of all comparisons...i have found all-metal mass damping NOT to work for me at all...but i DO like dense metals (used purely as weights) on top of HRS Nimbus Couplers or Artesania damper plates. So it is intriguing that you have discovered your formula of aluminum/viscoelastic/panzerholz vs pure aluminum. There may well be 0 correlation to my own personal observations with just 'whatever materials i had at my disposal'...but I did find upper mids/treble in piano to be where i had the most problems with 'just metal', even well regarded isolation products made entirely of metal.

Taiko Audio said:
The varying results are the reason the Tana modification package exists. In passive mode the TS/AVI is just a platform supported by springs attenuating transmissibility above and amplifying at and around its resonance point. When active is engaged something happens which NO passive solution can do, the natural resonance is cancelled out by counterforce produced by the piezoelectric motors and in stead of an +15dB amplification we get a 20-40dB reduction in transmissibility.

From he TS-140/150 manual:

View attachment 38267

The blue graph is a typical representation of any passive spring-mass damper, the natural frequency of the system, is determined by the mass and the spring compliance. It decreases for a larger mass or a more compliant (softer) spring.

A simple representation:

View attachment 38268

I don't see how anyone could argue against the obvious benefits of active isolation for low frequencies. However, as the TS 150/140 graph also shows, for higher frequencies it doesn't look as pretty. This is of no concern at all for laboratory purposes. For hifi applications however it's very audible. We have been able to increase the attenuation above ~40Hz, after long experimentation, by replacing the 6mm aluminium top platter by a 10mm aluminium - 0.5mm viscoelastic - 10mm panzerholz sandwich. This by itself makes a profound difference, depending on the sensitivity of the component sitting on the table it can make the difference between preferring active on or off (please note that for Horizontal 1 and Horizontal 2 active actually performs worse then passive above ~90Hz). The other part of the equation is the powersupply, the stock smps is pretty noisy leading to a "greying" and "flattening" of sound, with active enabled its much worse then in passive mode.

Now what is being experienced by Chris in his NDW-AVI-AS setup is surely interesting but you really cannot apply this experience to the TS-140/150 with the Tana upgrade package as it's an entirely different beast.

microstrip · Jan 16, 2018

Taiko Audio said:
(...) I don't see how anyone could argue against the obvious benefits of active isolation for low frequencies. (...)

Well, before arguing anything I would ask how these graphs were measured. IMHO they are just the tip of the iceberg - the same type of criticism we address to audio basic measurements can be raised now.

Mike Lavigne · Jan 16, 2018

microstrip said:
Well, before arguing anything I would ask how these graphs were measured. IMHO they are just the tip of the iceberg - the same type of criticism we address to audio basic measurements can be raised now.

the link for the manual PDF from the Table Stable website...page 14.

http://tablestable.com/uploads/ckeditor/TS-150/Manual TS V 1.02.pdf

Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

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