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Thread: Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening

  1. #161
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! rockitman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Williams View Post
    I'm pretty certain that was the point I was making
    To be clear...all TT’s have a feedback loop that runs from the record to cart to arm to arm bd, plinth, bearing if applicable and back again. When this vibration is being actively damped rather than freely flowing as intended and passively damped in the plinth based on TT designer tastes/engineering...we hope any way.

    I think with turntables active messes with this feedback loop that is responsibly for the ultimate sound character we hear with a particular TT design. I can’t say for sure this follows to tape or not and have no experience with digital and active isolation. I think power amps (perhaps) or components with separate power supplies will benefit the most. Again, this is my working theory.

    Optics are rather clear cut...Sharp or Not...that is what these were designed for. Sound is more complex, subjective. Sharp or not doesn’t do the sound medium justice when trying to describe it.
    Christian

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  2. #162
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] Tango's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockitman View Post
    To be clear...all TT’s have a feedback loop that runs from the record to cart to arm to arm bd, plinth, bearing if applicable and back again. When this vibration is being actively damped rather than freely flowing as intended and passively damped in the plinth based on TT designer tastes/engineering...we hope any way.

    I think with turntables active messes with this feedback loop that is responsibly for the ultimate sound character we hear with a particular TT design. I can’t say for sure this follows to tape or not and have no experience with digital and active isolation. I think power amps (perhaps) or components with separate power supplies will benefit the most. Again, this is my working theory.

    Optics are rather clear cut...Sharp or Not...that is what these were designed for. Sound is more complex, subjective. Sharp or not doesn’t do the sound medium justice when trying to describe it.
    I think the same. This is why I go rigid super heavy stable rack with Stacore in the mid shelf to work with a phono with separate power supply.

    However, I do hope Mike get better sound with his approach. At least my system definitely beat him on the aesthetic point of view .

    Tang

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    I’m a bit frustrated with where this discussion is going.
    Christian, weren’t you one of the big proponents of active under tts in those initial Herzan threads in 2012-2013?
    I believe these very criticisms or objections were put then, but there was a certain railroading of the view that Herzan was so uber comprehensive in its effects that a moving platter was dismissed as not an issue.
    Indeed I put some of these reservations fwd myself, but the consensus soon formed amongst you and Mike especially, that if it’s good enough for electron scanning microscopes, it’s good enough for top tts.
    Maybe those who now have moved on from active need to re read their posts from that period.
    What were you expecting? David manufactures a well thought turntable, optimizing mass, materials and shape, as well as gaps and drive to get a predictable result on a very solid stand. Now we are talking about inserting an active device, relying on PID controllers (feedback devices than analyze present, past and future errors, with unknown time consonants optimized for laboratory equipment) in this turntable system. It is a lottery, and we are just reading speculation on these facts.

    I applaud the Taiko people that analyzed the standard version of the tables, and perfected the power supplies to get a better performance. But as far as I could read the work was mainly empirical - they tried several alternative power supplies and listened to them with the available audio equipment. Also as far as I know no one has a model for the interaction of active tables with audio components - and no one is really interested in debating or studying it, as it is a marshy land.

    I always suspected that active tables are a lot more than just isolation, but it is only a feeling.

    IMHO it is an evolutionary process still in the beginning phase, we can expect that some people will change their opinions with experience. IMHO we should not care too much about the past, but instead live and enjoy the present and specially, do not try to guess the future!
    DCS Vivaldi 2.0 stack, SoundLab A1 Px, Forsell Air Force One, ARC Phono 2SE, cj GAT 2, cj ART monoblocks , TA OPUS MM2 IC's and sp, TA XL digital, TA XL gen V power cables, CenterStage footers and Nordost Qkore8's!

  4. #164
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! rockitman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    I’m a bit frustrated with where this discussion is going.
    Christian, weren’t you one of the big proponents of active under tts in those initial Herzan threads in 2012-2013?
    I believe these very criticisms or objections were put then, but there was a certain railroading of the view that Herzan was so uber comprehensive in its effects that a moving platter was dismissed as not an issue.
    Indeed I put some of these reservations fwd myself, but the consensus soon formed amongst you and Mike especially, that if it’s good enough for electron scanning microscopes, it’s good enough for top tts.
    Maybe those who now have moved on from active need to re read their posts from that period.
    When it worked...it appeared to improve the tech das. There was an HRS shelf buffer between it and the TS140. That probably mitigated the effects of active trying counteract good turntable borne vibrations along with the air bladder feet of the AF1.

    What’s the point of the rest of your diatribe ? I don’t like nor agree with the implication you are suggesting...that said... How about you and Entreq ? Want to buy my Silver Tellus boxes and Atlantis cables ?
    Last edited by rockitman; 01-12-2018 at 09:13 PM.
    Christian

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  5. #165
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    Ya got me there! Nevertheless Iíll pass on your kind Entreq offer.

  6. #166
    Site Founder And Administrator Ron Resnick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spiritofmusic View Post
    I’m a bit frustrated with where this discussion is going.
    Christian, weren’t you one of the big proponents of active under tts in those initial Herzan threads in 2012-2013?
    I believe these very criticisms or objections were put then, but there was a certain railroading of the view that Herzan was so uber comprehensive in its effects that a moving platter was dismissed as not an issue.
    Indeed I put some of these reservations fwd myself, but the consensus soon formed amongst you and Mike especially, that if it’s good enough for electron scanning microscopes, it’s good enough for top tts.
    Maybe those who now have moved on from active need to re read their posts from that period.
    Marc, respectfully, if you're frustrated maybe it is because you are, I think, mistating the evolution of that thread and that analysis. Christian and Mike are not the only audiophiles to use active isolation platforms under their turntables. I think it is quite common to see active isolation platforms under suspension-less turntables. I have seen several Brinkmann Balances on Herzans, for example. There also are OEM solutions where a turntable is integrated with an isolation device (e.g., Doehmann Helix 1 integrated with Minus K).

    I think Step One was that it makes sense to place suspension-less turntables on some sort of active isolation or pneumatic isolation platform. The question then became whether it makes sense to do so with turntables which have suspensions of some kind.

    PeterA and you and others raised many times the Step Two concern that the motion of the suspension of the turntable would "fight" with the active isolation mechanism of the Herzan and create some sort of feedback loop.

    I had a very long and detailed conversation with the CEO of Herzan, in which I explained the operation of a turntable with a suspension and described in detail the concerns expressed about the active isolation fighting with the turntable's suspension. She said she understood everything I was saying, and that the active isolation function of the Herzan operates so quickly that there would be no "fighting" and no feedback loop.

    So, to me, that conversation dispatched the theoretical objections to placing a turntable with a suspension on an active isolation platform.

    Step 3 was -- and still is -- the actual experimentation with turntables with and without suspensions on active isolation platforms. That is where we are now.

    Christian decided ultimately that the TechDAS did not sound good on the Herzan. Just because many people put Brinkmann Balances on active isolation platforms doesn't mean that every turntable without a suspension will sound better on an active isolation platform. The American Sound turntable is an example of a turntable without a suspension which does not sound better when placed on an active isolation platform. (As we know Mike is trying to establish whether the American Sound turntable sounds less good when placed on a Herzan because of design elements specific to the Herzan which might not apply to a more highly-evolved active isolation product, like the Taiko.)

    As is usually the case in this hobby it is difficult to make generalisations which will attract majority support. There are too many individual set-ups and individual preferences and unique combinations of components.

    What I don't understand, Marc, is why you are trying to establish a dogmatic view that active isolation does not work under turntables. It is as though -- now that you have concluded for yourself, in your idiosyncratic situation, that the Stacore outperforms active isolation -- you feel some need to secure a consensus that your preference is correct as a matter of general applicability. I don't understand why you feel compelled to vanquish the proposition that active isolation might be the right solution for some turntables.
    Mono and Stereo - Senior Contributing Reviewer

    turntable: American Sound AS-2000; tonearms: SME 3012R, SchrŲder LT; cartridges: ZYX UNIverse Premium X-SB2, Benz-Micro LP S; tape: Studer A820 Mk II; phono stage: Aesthetix Io Eclipse; line stage: Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse; amplifier: VTL Siegfried II; speakers: Gryphon Pendragons; cables: MasterBuilt Ultra; stands: Herzan + Taiko Tana for Io, custom for turntable, Stacore Basic+ for amps; power: Benjamin Electric subpanel; Torus AVR60BAL; JPS in-wall wire; Furutech NCF outlets; room: 19' wide X 24' long X 14' tall; treatment: ASC Tube Traps, Lumitex drapes; tweaks: Shakti Stones, Shun Mooks

  7. #167
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] Tango's Avatar
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    I think its just a case of hitting button Post Quick Reply too often and too fast. Like Mike used to say there is a Cancel button too.

    Wooozaaa everybody.

    Tang

  8. #168
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    Thatís not my intention at all Ron. Sorry if I gave that impression.
    Iíve run ancillaries that were stellar in my old space, but only marginally beneficial in the new, or downright counterproductive. So I know as well as anyone that YMMV, and thereís no point making too many generalisations.
    Indeed itís to Mikeís credit and single mindedness that heís pushing on with trialling an ultimate application of active under his new AS.
    I hope thatís cleared up my views on things.

  9. #169
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    Double post

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by microstrip View Post
    Does "passive" (with power on) engage any type of blocking system?
    No it doesn't. We will contact Table Stable this Monday to see if they have an explanation for this observation.

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