Can we know what are those ball bearing footers? As long as you are using them as a the only reference for your graphs we need to know what is the "base line".
Taiko Tana-LPS-Setchi---listening
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Can we know what are those ball bearing footers? As long as you are using them as a the only reference for your graphs we need to know what is the "base line".
Hi Marty
The measurements in the graphs show relative peak velocity of the vibrations of the two systems, active and passive, which are being excited by the background vibrations of the room and building. The difference in dB gives the ratio between the velocities of the two systems
Where the difference the vibrations is 45 dB at 7 Hz, it means the peak velocity of the active system has a peak velocity which is 178 times less than the passive and a vibrational energy that is 31,600 times less. The sonic importance of the vibrational energy is hard to quantify, but certainly the more the energy, the longer it takes to die away.
The graph from Herzan shows the transmissibility of a Herzan active system. The Transmissibility is the ratio of the force applied to the bottom plate relative to the force that the top plate exerts on the equipment resting on the top plate. The force is proportional to the acceleration which is proportional to the peak velocity. What the WaveCatcher graphs are showing is the difference in peak velocity and is indicative of the difference in relative transmissibility. These graphs say nothing about the absolute transmissibility of either the active or passive system. For that we would need to measure the actual floor peak velocity, and why we would need good deep penetrating spikes to be able to get meaningful measurements which would allow us to calculate transmissibility at different frequencies
This is a very easy question to answer, there is no visible difference between the sub 100 Hz performance of the TS-150 with either the SMPS, the Plixir or Tana LPS
The difference in the sonics between the three power supply is happening at frequencies above 100 Hz, and these are extremely difficult to measure in any consistent and error controlled way. But the good news is that we can hear the difference between these power supplies when playing real music
The measurements in the graphs show relative peak velocity of the vibrations of the two systems, active and passive, which are being excited by the background vibrations of the room and building. The difference in dB gives the ratio between the velocities of the two systems
Where the difference the vibrations is 45 dB at 7 Hz, it means the peak velocity of the active system has a peak velocity which is 178 times less than the passive and a vibrational energy that is 31,600 times less. The sonic importance of the vibrational energy is hard to quantify, but certainly the more the energy, the longer it takes to die away.
The graph from Herzan shows the transmissibility of a Herzan active system. The Transmissibility is the ratio of the force applied to the bottom plate relative to the force that the top plate exerts on the equipment resting on the top plate. The force is proportional to the acceleration which is proportional to the peak velocity. What the WaveCatcher graphs are showing is the difference in peak velocity and is indicative of the difference in relative transmissibility. These graphs say nothing about the absolute transmissibility of either the active or passive system. For that we would need to measure the actual floor peak velocity, and why we would need good deep penetrating spikes to be able to get meaningful measurements which would allow us to calculate transmissibility at different frequencies
This is a very easy question to answer, there is no visible difference between the sub 100 Hz performance of the TS-150 with either the SMPS, the Plixir or Tana LPS
The difference in the sonics between the three power supply is happening at frequencies above 100 Hz, and these are extremely difficult to measure in any consistent and error controlled way. But the good news is that we can hear the difference between these power supplies when playing real music
Just an FYI
I just put a Setchi D2 on the usb port of a Roon Nucleus+.....major change in sonics....basically more weight and bass presence. Instruments have more bite and dynamics.
Well done Taiko Audio!
I just put a Setchi D2 on the usb port of a Roon Nucleus+.....major change in sonics....basically more weight and bass presence. Instruments have more bite and dynamics.
Well done Taiko Audio!
Vibration spectrum comparison of wood floor, Tana off and Tana on
Here is a vibration spectrum analysis of a 1920's built apartment house with a wood floor and a Tana sitting directly on the wood floor. The measurements were taken in a 6th floor apartment.
- the grey line shows the vibration of the floor
- the purple line shows the vibration on the top plate of the Tana with the power off. We see that from 35 Hz to 200 Hz, the springs of the Tana and the Panzerholz top plate assembly significantly reduce the vibration level by about 20 dB
- the yellow line shows the vibration when the Tana is powered up and active anti vibration enabled. To put it mildly, the low level of vibration from 1 Hz to 1 KHz is pretty impressive
Here is a vibration spectrum analysis of a 1920's built apartment house with a wood floor and a Tana sitting directly on the wood floor. The measurements were taken in a 6th floor apartment.
- the grey line shows the vibration of the floor
- the purple line shows the vibration on the top plate of the Tana with the power off. We see that from 35 Hz to 200 Hz, the springs of the Tana and the Panzerholz top plate assembly significantly reduce the vibration level by about 20 dB
- the yellow line shows the vibration when the Tana is powered up and active anti vibration enabled. To put it mildly, the low level of vibration from 1 Hz to 1 KHz is pretty impressive
Great chart...particularly from 2hz to 50hz. From 50hz upwards, the isolation platform even turned off does still seem to offer reduced vibration potential to the component.
I wonder what this exact chart would look like for other isolation products.
I wonder what this exact chart would look like for other isolation products.
It just so happens that I took some measurements last week of a well regarded rack with side by side components. The left side had a turntable, the right side had a DAC with a noisy mains transformer sitting on a Tana. (The H1 sensor was used to measure the vertical vibrations)
- the grey line shows the vibration measured on the turntable base
- the yellow line shows the vibration measured on top of the DAC sitting on a Tana. You can see the vibration signature of the mains transformer
Sadly this particular turntable was too large to fit on a TS - 150
Needless to say, the SQ uplift to the DAC from the Tana was major. Bass clarity and power, mid range and high frequency harmonic detail and beauty
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Here is the same graph with the floor vibrations shown by the purple trace
The rack is doing a nice job from 20 Hz and higher, but there is a 20 dB magnification of the vibration at 10 Hz.
The low frequency vibration magnification of the rack is pretty much eliminated by the Tana
BTW, this rack costs a lot more than the Tana and LPS ;-)
The rack is doing a nice job from 20 Hz and higher, but there is a 20 dB magnification of the vibration at 10 Hz.
The low frequency vibration magnification of the rack is pretty much eliminated by the Tana
BTW, this rack costs a lot more than the Tana and LPS ;-)
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Thanks for posting those! You read my mind! Very interesting...to be fair, those passive isolation racks from 20hz are quite good and better than i was expecting and 50hz-80hz do quite well. The key is whether the 10hz vibration (where the performance difference is quite great) has an effect on the sound higher up the frequency where you can hear it.
What’s interesting is that that reducing vibrations at frequencies ( abt 10 Hz) which are below the audible threshold seems to clearly improve the perceived clarity of low frequency bass notes in the audible range ( abt 30 - 50 Hz)
Reducing 10 Hz vibrations would reduce the amount of phase error in the reproduction of audible low frequencies, so this seems to be a reasonable explanation from the perception of increased clarity of bass reproduction.
One observation I would like to share is as we have step by step reduced or mitigated sources of low frequency disturbance in our test system, the directionality of the bass seems to very noticeably increase.
Now we seem to be able hear and localize the bass drum in a size realistic and 3-D manner, instead of a broad cloud or sea of bass which we used to hear/perceive before
if you measure the SPL in your room without any music, you will see, that in most rooms you have around 30 to 35 db (c) noise from the outside.
This noise (wind, traffic, waves, trains, industrial machines, just the sound of nature and city) is mainly in the sub frequencies 30hz and below.
A good active base will eliminate/reduce this noise related vibrations, which will help to enjoy the music
This noise (wind, traffic, waves, trains, industrial machines, just the sound of nature and city) is mainly in the sub frequencies 30hz and below.
A good active base will eliminate/reduce this noise related vibrations, which will help to enjoy the music
if you measure the SPL in your room without any music, you will see, that in most rooms you have around 30 to 35 db (c) noise from the outside.
This noise (wind, traffic, waves, trains, industrial machines, just the sound of nature and city) is mainly in the sub frequencies 30hz and below.
A good active base will eliminate/reduce this noise related vibrations, which will help to enjoy the music
When we are playing music we certainly can not hear the airborne side effect of building vibrations, but they do get picked up by the electronics and then they can have a negative effect on the sound.
Shakti, you make a good point about good active bass speakers systems, these tend to have good phase error measurements. We have been really impressed by the Evolution Acoustics MM series which have excellent phase accuracy at the low frequencies. We are hearing great bass spatial definition from EA MM's when we implement the low frequency vibration reduction measures on source and electronics.
Here is a plot of the vertical vibrations of a New York City apartment building compared to the vibrations of a house in a rural setting. NYC has building vibrations going up to 150 Hz
Here is a plot of the horizontal vibrations of the same two buildings. The horizontal vibrations of the rural house drop of by 50 Hz, but there is a lot to attenuate in both cases !!
I am sorry if I put this in a wrong thread. I have been having these Taiko butcher blocks for over a month but just got a chance to install them yesterday. My French friend who put these blocks under his Kagura's told me to try them because they are not so expensive, cost less than footers and they work better than his SRAs. I told him if it did't work I would bill him.
Here they are under my ML3s. I am not really into footers, rack and platform. I thought they either has insignificant effects or shape sound in an unnatural way. But I must admit I like these Taiko blocks. They do not change the presentation of my sound. No sound organization. No darkness. No surround or immersive effect that add to my system. I like the presentation of my sound as is...and that is as it appear differently in each different vinyls. What these blocks do under my amps is pretty much clean up small artifacts, tiny microscopic spikes in all frequency range. I don't know if I can say less distortion. More pure seems to make more solidity. And they do it in such a way that is noticeable but not in a digitized way. Very nice indeed.
Tang
Here they are under my ML3s. I am not really into footers, rack and platform. I thought they either has insignificant effects or shape sound in an unnatural way. But I must admit I like these Taiko blocks. They do not change the presentation of my sound. No sound organization. No darkness. No surround or immersive effect that add to my system. I like the presentation of my sound as is...and that is as it appear differently in each different vinyls. What these blocks do under my amps is pretty much clean up small artifacts, tiny microscopic spikes in all frequency range. I don't know if I can say less distortion. More pure seems to make more solidity. And they do it in such a way that is noticeable but not in a digitized way. Very nice indeed.
Tang
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Dear Tang,
i cannot tell if you are using the footers designed to go under the Daiza's? and possibly your first comment refers to preferring not to use these supplied footers, you tried them and did not care for them? or, maybe it's a general comment about footers in general? i cannot tell.
the intended stock Daiza footers fit into the round cutouts where the white rubber foam is packed on the underside.
thanks,
Mike
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I did not mean the Daiza footers. I consider them an integral part of Daiza design. So I am using them.
Right now they are on CMS. My French friend like them stand alone more than on SRA. So I will try that some point in time.
best,
Tang
thanks.
so i'm clear as to exactly what you mean;
right now it's; Lamm ML3 -> Daiza -> Daiza footers -> CMS shelf -> floor.
and at some point you might remove the CMS shelf/rack and try the Daiza + Daiza footers directly on the floor.
do i have that right?
in my case, where i have carpet i have substituted stainless steel cones with long narrow points for the Daiza footers. but it's only for the power supplies for my Tana racks, not signal path gear. but the Daiza footers might work well on your lower nap carpet, mine is thick shag.....so i try to penetrate with cones into the concrete.
btw; agree wholeheartedly that the Daiza's seem to have a rightness and degree of organization sympathetic to the music about them and don't add any coloration or signature.
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You have that right sir
. Bonzo also asked me this. I checked and found I have not enough head room to squeeze the Daiza under the phono that is resting on the CMS.
Kind regards,
Tang
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