Audio Research 250SE Versus VTL MB-185 Series III/MB-450 Series III

DaveyF · Dec 2, 2017

microstrip said:
The downside of the RF750 was heat and tube replacements - it needs four matched octets every 2000 hours. In order to get matched octets you have to analyze and burn-in thousands of tubes. The REF250 only needs sets of three matched tubes.

That description alone would immediately discount these amps for me. Plus, you forgot to mention that as heat goes up, overall reliability goes down.

Personally, I strongly fall into the camp where the smaller amp with fewer tubes in the same model line, that is the amp of interest ( so long as the output is sufficient to drive your speakers...and room). So much so, that this is where I put my money in my recent amp addition.

Alpinist · Dec 6, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Well that is a bulls-eye! Thank you for replying!

Your system is almost identical to the ARC/Vandersteen system Randy Cooley of Optimal Enchantment demos at the Irvine and Los Angeles audio shows (but with Basis Audio vinyl front-end). Almost everyone loves that system!

Did you audition the Siegfrieds with the same ARC pre-amp (microstrip makes an excellent point)?

What do you mean by more "natural sounding" versus more "wow factor"?

Do you think one amp's sound is better for one type of music and the other amplifier is better for another type of music?

Thanks Ron!

I heard the VTL Siegfrieds at RMAF 2017 in the Vandersteen Room. They were running with a VTL preamp and Brinkman turntable.

The VTL components sounded outstanding with the Vandersteen 7 Mk2 speakers. In fact, a TAS reviewer gave the system "Best Sound - Cost No Object".

However, I prefer the sound of the ARC Ref 10 preamp and ARC Ref 250SE monoblocks due to a greater sense of unforced ease in the presentation. The VTL components sounded more vibrant than the ARC components but they also sounded brighter in the midrange and treble, which I found somewhat fatiguing after listening for over 30 minutes. The ARC preamp/amp combo can be listened to for hours on end with virtually zero listener fatigue due in large part to the neutrality of the components. They are not rolled off in the treble either.

I listened to all sorts of music on the VTL/Vandersteen system in my 3 days at RMAF and they were equally outstanding on all genres, as is the ARC preamp/amp combo.

I personally went for the ARC Ref 10 / Vandersteen M7-HPA monoblock combo because I felt the presentation had a bit more weight to it in the midrange and bass than the ARC Ref 10 / ARC Ref250SE combo. However, I could have been very happy with the ARC monoblocks as they ticked all the right boxes for me.

As always, YMMV.

Sorry for the delay in my response.

Best,
Ken

XV-1 · Dec 7, 2017

You should add the new cj ART 300's to your list. They have at least been designed from the ground up with the KT150's.

Ron Resnick · Dec 7, 2017

Thank you, XV-1!

Ron Resnick · Dec 7, 2017

Alpinist said:
Thanks Ron!

I heard the VTL Siegfrieds at RMAF 2017 in the Vandersteen Room. They were running with a VTL preamp and Brinkman turntable.

The VTL components sounded outstanding with the Vandersteen 7 Mk2 speakers. In fact, a TAS reviewer gave the system "Best Sound - Cost No Object".

However, I prefer the sound of the ARC Ref 10 preamp and ARC Ref 250SE monoblocks due to a greater sense of unforced ease in the presentation. The VTL components sounded more vibrant than the ARC components but they also sounded brighter in the midrange and treble, which I found somewhat fatiguing after listening for over 30 minutes. The ARC preamp/amp combo can be listened to for hours on end with virtually zero listener fatigue due in large part to the neutrality of the components. They are not rolled off in the treble either.

I listened to all sorts of music on the VTL/Vandersteen system in my 3 days at RMAF and they were equally outstanding on all genres, as is the ARC preamp/amp combo.

I personally went for the ARC Ref 10 / Vandersteen M7-HPA monoblock combo because I felt the presentation had a bit more weight to it in the midrange and bass than the ARC Ref 10 / ARC Ref250SE combo. However, I could have been very happy with the ARC monoblocks as they ticked all the right boxes for me.

As always, YMMV.

Sorry for the delay in my response.

Best,
Ken

Thank you for your thoughts, Ken. So it is well-settled that the new REF250 SE sounds materially different than the traditional ARC "house" sound. But does anyone know why?

Other than the switch to KT-150s did ARC change other components? The level of negative feedback? Differently-wound transformers?

Has anyone asked this question of his contact at ARC? What is the story here?

Ron Resnick · Dec 7, 2017

Alpinist said:
Thanks Ron!

I heard the VTL Siegfrieds at RMAF 2017 in the Vandersteen Room. They were running with a VTL preamp and Brinkman turntable.

The VTL components sounded outstanding with the Vandersteen 7 Mk2 speakers. In fact, a TAS reviewer gave the system "Best Sound - Cost No Object".

However, I prefer the sound of the ARC Ref 10 preamp and ARC Ref 250SE monoblocks due to a greater sense of unforced ease in the presentation. The VTL components sounded more vibrant than the ARC components but they also sounded brighter in the midrange and treble, which I found somewhat fatiguing after listening for over 30 minutes. The ARC preamp/amp combo can be listened to for hours on end with virtually zero listener fatigue due in large part to the neutrality of the components. They are not rolled off in the treble either.

I listened to all sorts of music on the VTL/Vandersteen system in my 3 days at RMAF and they were equally outstanding on all genres, as is the ARC preamp/amp combo.

I personally went for the ARC Ref 10 / Vandersteen M7-HPA monoblock combo because I felt the presentation had a bit more weight to it in the midrange and bass than the ARC Ref 10 / ARC Ref250SE combo. However, I could have been very happy with the ARC monoblocks as they ticked all the right boxes for me.

As always, YMMV.

Sorry for the delay in my response.

Best,
Ken

Thank you for your thoughts, Ken!

I now consider it well-settled that the new REF250 SE sounds materially different than the traditional ARC "house" sound (now richer-sounding and smoother; higher frequencies no longer whitish and illuminated). But does anyone know why?

Other than the switch to KT-150s did ARC change other components? The level of negative feedback? Differently-wound transformers?

Has anyone asked this question of his contact at ARC? What is the story here?

DaveyF · Dec 7, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you for your thoughts, Ken!

I now consider it well-settled that the new REF250 SE sounds materially different than the traditional ARC "house" sound (now richer-sounding and smoother; higher frequencies no longer whitish and illuminated). But does anyone know why?

Other than the switch to KT-150s did ARC change other components? The level of negative feedback? Differently-wound transformers?

Has anyone asked this question of his contact at ARC? What is the story here?

Hi Ron,
After my very interesting conversation with the ARC rep at the grand re-opening of Alma Audio, I would strongly suggest that you wait on an amp purchase until they bring out their new lines! I believe this will be sometime next year and should be well worth the wait—— that is if you are considering ARC.

microstrip · Dec 7, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Thank you for your thoughts, Ken!

I now consider it well-settled that the new REF250 SE sounds materially different than the traditional ARC "house" sound (now richer-sounding and smoother; higher frequencies no longer whitish and illuminated). But does anyone know why?

Other than the switch to KT-150s did ARC change other components? The level of negative feedback? Differently-wound transformers?

Has anyone asked this question of his contact at ARC? What is the story here?

IMHO the VT150's (1994~2000) were an excellent example of the ARC traditional ARC "house" sound - rich, full bodied, extended bass, airy, articulated and very natural. The next hybrid models, having SS elements in the gain stage, had more detail, more incisive bass but also the "whitish" sound balance you refer. The REF210 tried to reverse this balance, but IMHO lacked authority and control. Only the REF250, having similar topology but having an higher power transformer, significantly more power capacitance, teflon capacitors, different new semiconductors in the input buffer, different feedback ratios and KT120's brought us the traditional ARC "house" sound again. As far as I know the REF250SE has different signal cables, PCB material, coupling capacitors and the KT150s. Probably also some other small differences, but I could not know exactly about them.

asiufy · Dec 7, 2017

DaveyF said:
Hi Ron,
After my very interesting conversation with the ARC rep at the grand re-opening of Alma Audio, I would strongly suggest that you wait on an amp purchase until they bring out their new lines! I believe this will be sometime next year and should be well worth the wait—— that is if you are considering ARC.

I second that. From what I know, Audio Research might be coming out with an amp that will suit Ron perfectly. Power and refinement, with no lack of warmth.

Ron Resnick · Dec 7, 2017

Will it be conventional push-pull?

asiufy · Dec 7, 2017

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Audio Research 250SE Versus VTL MB-185 Series III/MB-450 Series III

DaveyF

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Alpinist

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XV-1

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Ron Resnick

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DaveyF

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microstrip

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asiufy

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