For those using Ethernet to your DAC

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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Yes, they are wrong. With the right grounded LPS and isolator on the right router or switch, the wired solution should be superior or at least identical. If it's identical, why put all of this unnecessary hardware in the chain?

This is where we are talking apples and oranges. If an optical to Ethernet converter has a better power supply or better output stage than the router or switch, then it will sound better. That is probably what is happening. The solution is to make the wired solution sound better by powering with the right grounded LPS and the right isolator and using the right router or switch. These devices are not all equal in performance. My own router sounds better than my Cisco switch. The isolator actually has a small effect compared to the grounded LPS BTW.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Hmmm. In my experience the fact that glass is not polluted by network noise or emi/rfi is the key advantage and it is not subtle, all else held constant (i.e., switch integrity, lps power supply, proper ground etc.).

Your highlighted comment in bold above seams somewhat backwards to me. You are actually making the system more complicated (by adding the custom components you reference) not less and the best outcome you can hope for is still not as noise free or emi/rfi protected as glass. There is no reason to use anything but a standard switch, router and power supplies on the upstream end of the glass media converter. All of this is completely isolates as nothing but light moves through the glass representing digital data only. None of the noise you are trying to avoid through a lot of custom stuff gets through. Then add a very good power supply to a very good media converter on the dac end. I had YFS do my LPS custom to match my excellent Transition Networks media converter. (Measured ripple noise is .1mv.) When people argue bits are bits so network components don't make a difference we both agree they are obviously wrong because they ignore electrical noise on the grounds and in conductors. But with glass noise is zero.

Furthermore, for people like me who have a completely isolated electrical systems for audio, it is essential to eliminate extraneous conductors from entering the system to not just minimize outside electrical noise but to also avoid ground loops.
 

Legolas

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Hmmm. In my experience the fact that glass is not polluted by network noise or emi/rfi is the key advantage and it is not subtle, all else held constant (i.e., switch integrity, lps power supply, proper ground etc.).

Your highlighted comment in bold above seams somewhat backwards to me. You are actually making the system more complicated (by adding the custom components you reference) not less and the best outcome you can hope for is still not as noise free or emi/rfi protected as glass. There is no reason to use anything but a standard switch, router and power supplies on the upstream end of the glass media converter. All of this is completely isolates as nothing but light moves through the glass representing digital data only. None of the noise you are trying to avoid through a lot of custom stuff gets through. Then add a very good power supply to a very good media converter on the dac end. I had YFS do my LPS custom to match my excellent Transition Networks media converter. (Measured ripple noise is .1mv.) When people argue bits are bits so network components don't make a difference we both agree they are obviously wrong because they ignore electrical noise on the grounds and in conductors. But with glass noise is zero.

Furthermore, for people like me who have a completely isolated electrical systems for audio, it is essential to eliminate extraneous conductors from entering the system to not just minimize outside electrical noise but to also avoid ground loops.

Who said Glass was the best option? I have read more negatives about it than positives. The output and receiver part of the system in many cases is poor, badly designed and just added as an after thought. If you find glass the best, maybe in your case your DAC has a decent glass input? But don't suppose your statement applies to all DACs or PCs / Macs or servers. It doesn't.
 

microstrip

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(...) But with glass noise is zero. (...)

Unfortunately no - with glass you manage to break the ground connection, assuring perfect galvanic isolation, something that pulse transformers do not give, but the digital optical signals can carry noise superimposed on them.

I do not have the minimal idea of the protocol changing the electrical signals to optical and vice-versa in the TP LINK MC210CS medium converters but I hope that it does not introduce more noise in the electrical signal than it removes - I am expecting the delivery of them soon!
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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Hmmm. In my experience the fact that glass is not polluted by network noise or emi/rfi is the key advantage and it is not subtle, all else held constant (i.e., switch integrity, lps power supply, proper ground etc.).

Your highlighted comment in bold above seams somewhat backwards to me. You are actually making the system more complicated (by adding the custom components you reference) not less and the best outcome you can hope for is still not as noise free or emi/rfi protected as glass.

Ethernet is galvanically isolated, and with the right isolator the leakage noise is 100dB down. It simpler just to replace the power supply to the router IMO.

There is no reason to use anything but a standard switch, router and power supplies on the upstream end of the glass media converter. All of this is completely isolates as nothing but light moves through the glass representing digital data only. None of the noise you are trying to avoid through a lot of custom stuff gets through. Then add a very good power supply to a very good media converter on the dac end.

How is adding an Ethernet to fiber and fiber to Ethernet simpler?

I had YFS do my LPS custom to match my excellent Transition Networks media converter. (Measured ripple noise is .1mv.) When people argue bits are bits so network components don't make a difference we both agree they are obviously wrong because they ignore electrical noise on the grounds and in conductors. But with glass noise is zero.

What about the noise from the power to the fiber to Ethernet converter?

Furthermore, for people like me who have a completely isolated electrical systems for audio, it is essential to eliminate extraneous conductors from entering the system to not just minimize outside electrical noise but to also avoid ground loops.

My system also has zero ground-loops. It is router -> isolator -> Ethernet DAC -> Final Drive (Transformer) -> SET monoblocks

Look, I have a customer that has what you have, the optical isolation system for Ethernet that he has been using to drive my Ethernet DAC. He will be changing soon to my WIFI solution powered from a grounded LPS. I'll post which one sounds better when he tells me.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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Who said Glass was the best option? I have read more negatives about it than positives. The output and receiver part of the system in many cases is poor, badly designed and just added as an after thought. If you find glass the best, maybe in your case your DAC has a decent glass input? But don't suppose your statement applies to all DACs or PCs / Macs or servers. It doesn't.

Unfortunately no - with glass you manage to break the ground connection, assuring perfect galvanic isolation, something that pulse transformers do not give, but the digital optical signals can carry noise superimposed on them.

I do not have the minimal idea of the protocol changing the electrical signals to optical and vice-versa in the TP LINK MC210CS medium converters but I hope that it does not introduce more noise in the electrical signal than it removes - I am expecting the delivery of them soon!

My MSB dac with renderer receives ethernet cable not light like most. The system I referenced only uses light from my network switch to my audio room to isolate from network noise, isolate ground and avoid emu/rfi in transmission. The key to performance is in the execution of the media converter from light to electric at the DAC end of the chain. Just like the key in an all copper system is execution in the switch, router and power supply on the front end of the chain as Steve indicated. You are correct execution matters. Maybe I was too absolute in my comment and should have been more clear that this is of course important .

My main point was that if you hold all of the execution parameters constant (i.e., they are all executed at a high level of optimization) light has a significant advantage because it doesn't get impacted by rfi/emi in transit, it breaks the network ground and it doesn't carry electrical noise from inception. But the last point is now being contradicted by microstrip. That is new science to me. I am aware that cheap media converters (ones not designed to be quiet) and the lack of a good properly matched LPS can add electrical noise back into the copper after the conversion protocol in the media converter and that is why I went the route of YPS and Transition Networks. I was not aware that digital optical signals can have noise superimposed on them. Frankly I can't even think of how that is possible but thank you for correcting me. All of that said, I guess like everything else in this hobby even if the science says A, you need to check B, C, D and E with your own ears because the execution ultimately determines results.
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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Look, I have a customer that has what you have, the optical isolation system for Ethernet that he has been using to drive my Ethernet DAC. He will be changing soon to my WIFI solution powered from a grounded LPS. I'll post which one sounds better when he tells me.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Thanks Steve as indicated earlier I will be very interested in the results.
 

jeromelang

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You all got check directionality of the ethernet cable?....
 

Bobvin

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Where does one go to learn wtf you guys are talking about? Glass, light, extenders???
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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Where does one go to learn wtf you guys are talking about? Glass, light, extenders???

This is a good place.

Glass refers to optical translators, from wired Ethernet to optical Ethernet and optical Ethernet back to wired Ethernet. 2 boxes each powered and long optical fibers between the 2 boxes.

You can get these on Amazon. They can extend your Ethernet 100's of feet.

You can also get AC-wiring extenders that use the wiring in your house. Not sure yet if these are interesting for Audio or not. AC wall-wart with Ethernet jack for both ends.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Pb Blimp

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Oct 30, 2017
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Where does one go to learn wtf you guys are talking about? Glass, light, extenders???

Computeraudiophile has a few threads on network isolation were a lot of people have done quite a bit of testing.
 

Bso

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Sep 30, 2016
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Massachusetts/Toronto
Crossover Cables

Unless it is a matter of placing Internet connected computers or ethernet-enabled storage devices some distance from the DAC, etc., or just because of convenience, why don't people use a high quality CAT 5/6/7 crossover cable and eliminate the intermediate switch/router within the home system?

A crossover cable is thus used to connect one LAN adapter to another without the need for an intermediary. We used to use crossover cables all the time for troubleshooting when I was on one of the several companies teams developing Thin-Wire Ethernet and many generations afterwards. We also used them to test and effect computer-computer transfers, etc. I don't recall ever having a length or noise issue in labs or customer sites. Note that switchs, etc., were developed so many computers, etc., could talk to each other in a large intranet. Audio purity was not a consideration.

Having a dedicated switch with special power supplies, etc., just for audio seems like it is adding unneeded complexity from a systems point of view unless there is the geography/distance within the home or studio, problem.

Consider that the Accuphase HS-Link and HS-2-Link cables are a direct link from device to device, e.g. transport to DAC using Ethernet cables with RJ-45 connectors. How they are wired, and whether they are a (variant on a) standard crossover cable I do not know having never tested one. Their devices are in the highest echelon of audio reproduction and clever people, have been using it since SACD came out, maybe before. Same goes for I2S but it uses a non-RJ-45 connector, I think.
 
Last edited:

sbo6

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Crossover Cables

Unless it is a matter of placing Internet connected computers or ethernet-enabled storage devices some distance from the DAC, etc., or just because of convenience, why don't people use a high quality CAT 5/6/7 crossover cable and eliminate the intermediate switch/router within the home system?

A crossover cable is thus used to connect one LAN adapter to another without the need for an intermediary. We used to use crossover cables all the time for troubleshooting when I was on one of the several companies teams developing Thin-Wire Ethernet and many generations afterwards. We also used them to test and effect computer-computer transfers, etc. I don't recall ever having a length or noise issue in labs or customer sites. Note that switchs, etc., were developed so many computers, etc., could talk to each other in a large intranet. Audio purity was not a consideration.

Having a dedicated switch with special power supplies, etc., just for audio seems like it is adding unneeded complexity from a systems point of view unless there is the geography/distance within the home or studio, problem.

Consider that the Accuphase HS-Link and HS-2-Link cables are a direct link from device to device, e.g. transport to DAC using Ethernet cables with RJ-45 connectors. How they are wired, and whether they are a (variant on a) standard crossover cable I do not know having never tested one. Their devices are in the highest echelon of audio reproduction and clever people, have been using it since SACD came out, maybe before. Same goes for I2S but it uses a non-RJ-45 connector, I think.

Interesting timing, I'm on a CA thread where the same suggestion and testing came up and 1 member is reporting a sonic benefit. The only problem as you stated is - if you need internet access, and / or remote access. I guess you could run 2 NICs on your music server 1 to your router 1 direct like you suggested.
 

Pb Blimp

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
518
25
140
USA
Crossover Cables

Unless it is a matter of placing Internet connected computers or ethernet-enabled storage devices some distance from the DAC, etc., or just because of convenience, why don't people use a high quality CAT 5/6/7 crossover cable and eliminate the intermediate switch/router within the home system?

A crossover cable is thus used to connect one LAN adapter to another without the need for an intermediary. We used to use crossover cables all the time for troubleshooting when I was on one of the several companies teams developing Thin-Wire Ethernet and many generations afterwards. We also used them to test and effect computer-computer transfers, etc. I don't recall ever having a length or noise issue in labs or customer sites. Note that switchs, etc., were developed so many computers, etc., could talk to each other in a large intranet. Audio purity was not a consideration.

Having a dedicated switch with special power supplies, etc., just for audio seems like it is adding unneeded complexity from a systems point of view unless there is the geography/distance within the home or studio, problem.

Consider that the Accuphase HS-Link and HS-2-Link cables are a direct link from device to device, e.g. transport to DAC using Ethernet cables with RJ-45 connectors. How they are wired, and whether they are a (variant on a) standard crossover cable I do not know having never tested one. Their devices are in the highest echelon of audio reproduction and clever people, have been using it since SACD came out, maybe before. Same goes for I2S but it uses a non-RJ-45 connector, I think.

Yes, for me this discussion has been about a system that is internet connected for downloads and streaming. Of course, if you don't need to be connected to the internet you don't need to isolate the connection. The point here is that you can connect to the internet through a couple of simple steps and do so with no SQ compromise. As addressed above, IMO the best approach is to eliminate all of the voltage leaks that can still pass through ethernet copper even though it is galvanically isolated by going to glass. But others here have there own ideas.
 

RussR

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Dec 30, 2017
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I also use those optical convertors and power them from 18000mhn battery power packs it does seem to clean up the noise floor ,and the final connection is an Audioquest Diamond ethernet cable into a Linn DS Katalyst Klimax streamer .I've used this solution for the last 2 years and it works well ,better than using the wall wart supplies supplied with the TP link convertors .Have a look over on the Linn forums site people there have been solving these issues for years and have walked along this path long ago ,it may help you as Linn decided on Ethernet connection as the desired link when the fist released Their Klimax DS about 10 years ago.
 

Bso

Well-Known Member
Sep 30, 2016
98
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138
Massachusetts/Toronto
Yes, for me this discussion has been about a system that is internet connected for downloads and streaming. Of course, if you don't need to be connected to the internet you don't need to isolate the connection. The point here is that you can connect to the internet through a couple of simple steps and do so with no SQ compromise. As addressed above, IMO the best approach is to eliminate all of the voltage leaks that can still pass through ethernet copper even though it is galvanically isolated by going to glass. But others here have there own ideas.

Sorry if I went off topic but I think both approaches can be effected together. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, since I left Ethernet engineering per se several decades ago but how are these voltage leaks measured? Are they common in well engineered "metal" cables and LAN adapters? However, I think on an absolute level fiber is better especially for the public Internet where the consideration is getting an increasingly high bandwidth signal to as many subscribers as possible.

Could RussR and Pb Blimp please give me the links that they are referring to? I need to move into "digital" audio in a deeper way than I have for years, just spinning silver disks and making USB sticks!

(In the old days we used to build our own PCs for the some of the same reasons as people today, mostly price/performance/open systems hardware.)
 

Pb Blimp

Well-Known Member
Oct 30, 2017
518
25
140
USA
Sorry if I went off topic but I think both approaches can be effected together. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, since I left Ethernet engineering per se several decades ago but how are these voltage leaks measured? Are they common in well engineered "metal" cables and LAN adapters? However, I think on an absolute level fiber is better especially for the public Internet where the consideration is getting an increasingly high bandwidth signal to as many subscribers as possible.

Could RussR and Pb Blimp please give me the links that they are referring to? I need to move into "digital" audio in a deeper way than I have for years, just spinning silver disks and making USB sticks!

(In the old days we used to build our own PCs for the some of the same reasons as people today, mostly price/performance/open systems hardware.)

You can find a lot here by searching the subjects being discussed:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/
 

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