Head direct out on the Studer A80 RC?

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
161
11
123
Hi Fred, these direct-out cards would be popular with A80 owners - will you offer the cards for sale to forum members and/or the general public?

Hello Steve,

Yes, people ask us for this.

But the request is almost always based on the premise that the repro electronics are the weakest point of the tape playback system. That's an unfortunate misconception popularized by the people who invented the tape renaissance as a way to sell outboard tape stages. Their outrageous message was that you could go out and get any old tape machine. (They like to call them tape decks.) Spend a few hundred dollars on a "deck" and then hack into the head wiring to connect your new tape stage and you have found audio nirvana.

Of course this is total BS.

Anyone who believes that hooking up someone's outboard tape stage will bring a worthwhile improvement, without ever first verifying that it accurately follows the standard reproduce equalization curves (let alone that it outperforms accepted, competently designed professional tape repro circuitry) probably shouldn't be calling themselves an audiophile.

Beware of junk science. The fundamental consideration for achieving state-of-the-art playback of analog tape is in fact found in the transport, because that's where the time base accuracy comes from.

Even though a servo constant tension precision guidance tape transport is maybe twenty times more complex than any turntable, people new to analog tape could still learn an awful lot by paying closer attention to the serious turntable people.

Then, after gaining some understanding of what makes a truly great turntable, they might begin to realize that the time base accuracy of a tape transport (its speed stability, flutter and scrape flutter) is of fundamental and paramount importance.

Time base accuracy in tape playback is very audible. It's what made the A80 and A820 so very, very different from all other machines, including the more common, lower cost Studer models.

But today, the big problem we have is that the surviving A80s and A820s are now way past their anticipated service life before overhaul. Alarmingly (to me), way too many A80 and A820 machine owners seem to think that this rebuilding work can be done by just about anyone. It can't.

Meanwhile parts vendors are cashing in on the DIY tape machine service market. Here in the USA, the situation is particularly bad because we also have companies who have been selling bogus or incompetently engineered parts for A80s and A820s and doing so for decades now.

Back to the subject of direct out for outboard repro electronics.

It should be remembered that the true respected analog tape circuit design professionals have understood for more than thirty years that the first stage of repro gain preferably belongs in the headblock, right next to the repro head (and also correctly matched to that specific head, obviously).

So for me to be selling direct out substitution cards for the A80 RC, to the general public, just seems like a total sell-out.

I'd rather stand up for the principles that I believe in.
 
Last edited:

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
(...) It should be remembered that the true respected analog tape circuit design professionals have understood for more than thirty years that the first stage of repro gain preferably belongs in the headblock, right next to the repro head (and also correctly matched to that specific head, obviously). (...)

Yes, I would prefer buying your nice buffer board that fits so nicely in the A80 headblock ...
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,453
2,835
1,410
Anyone who believes that hooking up someone's outboard tape stage will bring a worthwhile improvement, without ever first verifying that it accurately follows the standard reproduce equalization curves (let alone that it outperforms accepted, competently designed professional tape repro circuitry) probably shouldn't be calling themselves an audiophile.

Fred, why are you presuming that people who have spent great time and effor to build very nice outboard tape stages haven’t already done this? Do you know that the finest units on the market today do not properly reproduce the EQ curves?

Doesn’t anyone with a turntable and phono pre run into the same issue? Do people check the properties of their phono cartridge to make sure that it sending the proper signal to the phono pre?

It seems like you are making assumptions about equipment which may not be true. It isn’t as though the market is flooded with tons of tape preamps. There are fewer than a dozen out there today that I know of.
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
7,007
515
1,740
Snohomish, WA
www.pugetsoundstudios.com
Fred, why are you presuming that people who have spent great time and effor to build very nice outboard tape stages haven’t already done this? Do you know that the finest units on the market today do not properly reproduce the EQ curves?

Doesn’t anyone with a turntable and phono pre run into the same issue? Do people check the properties of their phono cartridge to make sure that it sending the proper signal to the phono pre?

It seems like you are making assumptions about equipment which may not be true. It isn’t as though the market is flooded with tons of tape preamps. There are fewer than a dozen out there today that I know of.


Fewer than a dozen for sure..... what??

Doshi
King/Cello
DeHavilland
Bottlehead
Aria

any more???? Fred just doesn't want to sell to us "audiophiles". Ask MikeL how much he had to go through....

I'd like to purchase the direct out cards too..... not because I'm going to an external pre, but some labels want NON-EQ'd tracks!!
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
(...) Doesn’t anyone with a turntable and phono pre run into the same issue?

Yes, but we do not care!

Do people check the properties of their phono cartridge to make sure that it sending the proper signal to the phono pre?
No, they do not - it is not easy to do unless you have the proper test LPs and equipment to measure it. Just see that many of our users prefer to use their cartridges unloaded, against manufacturer advise.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,453
2,835
1,410
Fewer than a dozen for sure..... what??

Doshi
King/Cello
DeHavilland
Bottlehead
Aria

any more???? Fred just doesn't want to sell to us "audiophiles". Ask MikeL how much he had to go through....

I'd like to purchase the direct out cards too..... not because I'm going to an external pre, but some labels want NON-EQ'd tracks!!

Erhard Audio, aka Tube Nirvana is one more.
 
Jan 18, 2012
2,369
2,466
1,475
Drobak Norway
Tubuguru also makes them, even if it seems like it´s mostly on order

but seriously, how hard can theese direct boards be to build?
It´s acc to Fred himself a matter of making the correct load for each spesific head
can´t be unsolvable
 
Jan 18, 2012
2,369
2,466
1,475
Drobak Norway
apart from that, I personally have chosen to use the onboard reproboards, but heavily rebuildt by Todor Dimitrov of Mastertapesoundlab
this solution leaves nothing to be wanted for me in my system and is verified by measurements of sn, distortion, freq response, phase etc by my local tape tech, who does all final adjustments for me after I´ve done the recapping, rewiring, exchange of bearings, mechanical and electrical adjustments of tape path parameters ...
maybe not to Fred standards, but approved by tech through his measurements...
I feel that he as an oldschool studio /tape serviceman is qualified ....
best
Leif
 

dcc

VIP/Donor
Nov 4, 2012
660
1,302
1,230
Continental Europe -
apart from that, I personally have chosen to use the onboard reproboards, but heavily rebuildt by Todor Dimitrov of Mastertapesoundlab
this solution leaves nothing to be wanted for me in my system and is verified by measurements of sn, distortion, freq response, phase etc by my local tape tech, who does all final adjustments for me after I´ve done the recapping, rewiring, exchange of bearings, mechanical and electrical adjustments of tape path parameters ...
maybe not to Fred standards, but approved by tech through his measurements...
I feel that he as an oldschool studio /tape serviceman is qualified ....
best
Leif

I’ve done exactly the same.

My local tech who has been working on Studer recorders since the golden age of analog recording studios was against the use of a tape head preamp with a Studer A80 RC. He brought the tape recorder to its original specs with mechanical parts sourced from Audio House (not cheap though). The machine has been fully recapped and all out of specs electronic components have been changed. My tech modified the audio cards as well and there was a clear improvement validated with measurements on his Audio Precision.

I also acquired the custom made stabilizer card from Todor which beats the Studer card (even heavily modified by my tech). I have a spare set of repro cards that I’ve sent to MTSL and will soon be able to compare.
 
Last edited:
Jan 18, 2012
2,369
2,466
1,475
Drobak Norway
cool
I´m told the headblock pre was introduced for A807/A810/A812/A820 etc due to the fact that the head signal in theese machines are more exposed to picking up noise from all the advanced electronics in theese more modern machines
reg stabs and repro boards from T: I´ve done this to both my RCs and also 5 R and RC I´ve fixed for friends
have a R and a RC in the basement too, ready for new stabs and repro boards from T.
If you haven´t done it already, you should also get Todors low capasitance capton silver wire and rewire all audiowires, incl soldering from head terminals to headblock connector.
shitty job, but worth it...
btw I tried an all out choke input psu tube buffer hooked up to R47 on the reproboard, but still prefer "the Todor way"
the A80 effectively drive my 300B amps directly through a balanced TVC for the purest signal path
 

dcc

VIP/Donor
Nov 4, 2012
660
1,302
1,230
Continental Europe -
cool
I´m told the headblock pre was introduced for A807/A810/A812/A820 etc due to the fact that the head signal in theese machines are more exposed to picking up noise from all the advanced electronics in theese more modern machines
reg stabs and repro boards from T: I´ve done this to both my RCs and also 5 R and RC I´ve fixed for friends
have a R and a RC in the basement too, ready for new stabs and repro boards from T.
If you haven´t done it already, you should also get Todors low capasitance capton silver wire and rewire all audiowires, incl soldering from head terminals to headblock connector.
shitty job, but worth it...
btw I tried an all out choke input psu tube buffer hooked up to R47 on the reproboard, but still prefer "the Todor way"
the A80 effectively drive my 300B amps directly through a balanced TVC for the purest signal path

Thanks for the tip. I’ll leave this job to my tech anyway. Did you try Todor’s upgraded tape tension sensors?
 

Fred Thal

[Industry Expert]
Jul 15, 2016
161
11
123
Hi David,

Do you own any calibration tapes? Do you use them?

I ask because I get the impression that today's audiophile tape community believes that checking playback response flatness with a calibration tape is unnecessary.

This is a remarkable departure from the thinking we saw in the pro community when analog tape technology reached its zenith thirty years ago.

Back then, it was considered totally unacceptable that tape playback would alter the response in some way.

Starting from the definition of high fidelity, recording artists, their producers and mastering engineers all insisted that there be no further EQ changes introduced to an approved master.

You probably wouldn't allow someone to insert a parametric equalizer into your system and then make hidden changes to your system's frequency response. But that could be very similar to what's happening if you insert a new tape stage without confirming its response.

Fred, why are you presuming that people who have spent great time and effor to build very nice outboard tape stages haven’t already done this?

It's not so much a presumption as it is a suspicion.

If you carefully measure some of these new products and see very significant anomalies, it shouldn't be unreasonable to then question the competence of the circuit designer or the product manufacturer.

Here are two questions that I suggest people think about.

Are the makers of the new tape stages publishing meaningful specifications for the equipment they're selling?

Is any competent, independent tester checking to see that those published specifications are being met?

If the answers are no and no, then I worry.

Allowing people to wage a war on the science underlying analog audio isn't going to benefit real audiophiles.
 
Last edited:

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,453
2,835
1,410
Hi David,

Do you own any calibration tapes? Do you use them?

Absolutely. I own MRL tapes for both NAB and IEC and for 15 ips and 7.5 ips.

I ask because I get the impression that today's audiophile tape community believes that checking playback response flatness with a calibration tape is unnecessary.

From my experience there are 2 different classes of audiophiles: those who like to get their hands dirty and those who rely on others to help keep their equipment running and performing properly. However, in both situations the machines are being tested and calibrated with the correct tools.

Personally, I fall in the middle. There are some things that I am comfortable doing, like calibration, and other things I let the experts take care of.

Here are two questions that I suggest people think about.

Are the makers of the new tape stages publishing meaningful specifications for the equipment they're selling?

Is any competent, independent tester checking to see that those published specifications are being met?

If the answers are no and no, then I worry.

Like anything else this varies, but I don't think that the assumption should be that people who build these external preamps don't know what they are doing. Some are very talented designers and technicians.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
(...) Do you own any calibration tapes? Do you use them? (...)

Surely - the Tape Project callibration tape and the MLR speed, equalization and flutter tape. How else could I align and check my A80?

Besides I have a few digital tracks to calibrate the analog measuring instruments.
 

topoxforddoc

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2015
67
6
138
Cheltenham, UK
I think that the difference is that one should check the azimuth and line up of your machine every day and with every tape, which you play. Every tape should (many don't) have line up tones either at the head or the tail; I check the azimuth and repro levels on my machines against the line up tones every time I play a tape. Every time I record, I adjust the record line up and bias using test tones and a PPM meter, as tape batches can vary subtly.

I'm afraid that the mechanical and electronic side of maintenance is beyond me; I have other priorities in my day job, which take up time. Fred is correct in saying that the crucial bit about tape machines is the transport. Whilst I would love to have a dedicated reproducer made by Fred, my earnings as a UK (as opposed to US) surgeon doesn't afford me that luxury.

Personally, I can't see the point in buying specialised tape repro electronics, unless the other basic fundamentals are given i.e. transport time constancy, having line up tones on every tape and performing correct calibration and line up for every replay tape. After all, one wouldn't spend a small fortune on a fabulous phono stage unless you made sure that the set up of your tonearm and cartridge was near damn perfect (allowing for the inherent problems with pivoted tonearms) all the time.

Charlie
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,453
2,835
1,410
Personally, I can't see the point in buying specialised tape repro electronics, unless the other basic fundamentals are given i.e. transport time constancy, having line up tones on every tape and performing correct calibration and line up for every replay tape. After all, one wouldn't spend a small fortune on a fabulous phono stage unless you made sure that the set up of your tonearm and cartridge was near damn perfect (allowing for the inherent problems with pivoted tonearms) all the time.

Charlie

But the alignment and calibration issues you mentioned, which are all critical, are also an issue if you use the internal electronics. So, while I agree that one needs ensure that their deck is properly set up to play each tape, I don’t see this as an external electronics-only concern.
 

topoxforddoc

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2015
67
6
138
Cheltenham, UK
Dave,

You are quite correct, but make the assumption that everyone is as assiduous in tape line up and machine calibration. Yes, in an ideal world, having external repro electronics would be great, but only if all the other things are done first. Personally I would rather buy some more tapes with the money, as the stock electronics aren't terrible. I must say that I think that the replay sound quality from a Sony APR 5000 machine takes some beating.

Charlie
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,453
2,835
1,410
Charlie,

I agree that software > hardware. It is all about the music. But it is hard to fight off the urge for audio reproduction nirvana.

David
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing