Koetsu

Ron Resnick · Dec 31, 2017

Thank you, Tang. That is a very thoughtful and introspective conclusion, and it makes sense to me.

Thank you, Bruce. I have been looking for sometime for a new old stock FR-66S.

Kcin · Jan 1, 2018

Interesting discussion. For those with the experience- as long as we are talking arms for Koetsu- what of the SME 3012R vs. say a FR64s with silver wire option. I am using the the RSP .

I have an opportunity for both locally. I doubt I'll ever get into SPU's. Comments welcome.

PeterA · Jan 1, 2018

Uk Paul said:
? SME V is an extemely good tonearm!

I agree. Has anyone directly compared the SME 3012R (3009) to the SME V-12 (V) using the same Koetsu cartridge? Someone suggested I buy a 3012R for my system to hear it until I pointed out that it would not fit on my SME turntable because of the suspension towers. Perhaps it can be modified with a heavier, shorter counterweight.

Why did SME develop the new generation V arm if it was not better sonically than the 3009?

spiritofmusic · Jan 1, 2018

Peter, one could also ask how in effect a NOS 1970s tt (original AS) can sound better than anything out there (I believe this might be David’s contention).
If a c1950s tonearm sounds better than a current model from the same company, that’s just a truism, it sounds better.
Whether it does or not, and whether the AS really is king of the hill or not...

bonzo75 · Jan 1, 2018

I have never compared, but from some the logic is that SME V is a highly damped arm best used for carts like colibri (indeed VDH uses it to voice his carts). While Koetsu do well with high mass undamped, like FR. Right or wrong, they are different designs and one can try to compare both with colibri and with Koetsu to verify the above.

PeterA · Jan 1, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I have never compared, but from some the logic is that SME V is a highly damped arm best used for carts like colibri (indeed VDH uses it to voice his carts). While Koetsu do well with high mass undamped, like FR. Right or wrong, they are different designs and one can try to compare both with colibri and with Koetsu to verify the above.

Thank you Ked. That makes some sense. I think my two cartridges, the AirTight Supreme and the MSL Sig. Gold, were both in part developed using an SME V arm which may be why they seem to be such a good match in my system. I am still really curious to know what the engineers at SME were thinking when they developed the V arm. ARA was an opera lover, and I can not imagine that he would release an arm which did not sound natural. The earlier Koetsu wood bodies are of much different mass than the newer stone bodies which one would think were developed for modern arms of the time, but I really don't know.

The damping point could be critical and why matching the arm to the armboard/table and cartridge is important.

ddk · Jan 1, 2018

bonzo75 said:
I have never compared, but from some the logic is that SME V is a highly damped arm best used for carts like colibri (indeed VDH uses it to voice his carts). While Koetsu do well with high mass undamped, like FR. Right or wrong, they are different designs and one can try to compare both with colibri and with Koetsu to verify the above.

It’s simpler than that Ked, irrespective of which is supposedly the “best” all these arms have a “flavor” which doesn’t change from cartridge to cartridge or even from tt to tt. If one is familiar with generic Koetsu qualitiesand likes them it’s easy to understand why someone would also favor FR “S” series arms and it has nothing to do with heavy, damped, or otherwise, it’s just a flavor. There’s no black magic here or some cosmic calculation and knowledge, just experience and skills that anyone can learn.

david

microstrip · Jan 1, 2018

ddk said:
(...) There’s no black magic here or some cosmic calculation and knowledge, just experience and skills that anyone can learn.

david

Many audiophiles love rules and generalizations, and you are telling us it is mostly a matter of experience and skills? You are spoiling their fun!

ddk · Jan 1, 2018

microstrip said:
Many audiophiles love rules and generalizations, and you are telling us it is mostly a matter of experience and skills? You are spoiling their fun!

You left out mystery novels

!

david

awsmone · Jan 2, 2018

Unfortunately that’s been my experience...experience wins over rules

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/yogi_berra_141506

PeterA · Jan 2, 2018

ddk said:
It’s simpler than that Ked, irrespective of which is supposedly the “best” all these arms have a “flavor” which doesn’t change from cartridge to cartridge or even from tt to tt. If one is familiar with generic Koetsu qualitiesand likes them it’s easy to understand why someone would also favor FR “S” series arms and it has nothing to do with heavy, damped, or otherwise, it’s just a flavor. There’s no black magic here or some cosmic calculation and knowledge, just experience and skills that anyone can learn.

david

David, could you describe the "flavor" of the SME IV and V versus the "flavor" of the SME 3012R? I certainly heard a difference between the 9" SME V and the 12" SME V-12 on the same table and cartridge, but I have never heard the 3012. Have you ever discovered an arm which has very little or no flavor, ie, one that is transparent? You make it sound as if with the proper experience and skills, it is all about matching up the flavor of the tonearm to the flavor of the cartridge to get the sound one prefers.

Do all components have a flavor, or do some actually have very little sound of there own? I suppose that in itself is a kind of flavor. I had presumed that the AS2000 is not flavored, imparting nothing to the sound by providing an extremely transparent platform for the arm and cartridge.

ddk · Jan 2, 2018

PeterA said:
David, could you describe the "flavor" of the SME IV and V versus the "flavor" of the SME 3012R? I certainly heard a difference between the 9" SME V and the 12" SME V-12 on the same table and cartridge, but I have never heard the 3012. Have you ever discovered an arm which has very little or no flavor, ie, one that is transparent? You make it sound as if with the proper experience and skills, it is all about matching up the flavor of the tonearm to the flavor of the cartridge to get the sound one prefers.

Do all components have a flavor, or do some actually have very little sound of there own? I suppose that in itself is a kind of flavor. I had presumed that the AS2000 is not flavored, imparting nothing to the sound by providing an extremely transparent platform for the arm and cartridge.

Everything has a flavor Peter the trick is finding components with the least amount of noticeable character that get out of the way of the main event, i.e. the recording. That's what the AS does, it's a foundation for the medium you'll be surprised how much information is hidden in the grooves of a standard lp. A tool like the AS and 3012 not only get out of the way but also help to bring out what's in those recordings. The SME 3012-r is very different from the other SME arms starting with core design it's as far as you can get from the IV & V. I know this will upset some but it's how it is, the 3012-r is like Fiji mineral water and the IV/V is Pepsi. They were designed when the tt trend was light belt drives and mostly suspended and what they have in common is shitty bass. They ALL lack extension and many are susceptible to all kinds of feedback and mudding affecting everything else too, the IV & V were designed with these tables in mind that's why I think the bass quality is so artificial and strangely with those arms.

By skill I meant arm/cartridge setup. The only way to get it is to play around and it doesn't have to be expensive carts, buy a lot of used ones for a couple of hundred bucks and go at it. All you need is a protractor, maybe a SHURE scale and your ears. The same goes for tonearms play around with a few that's where the experience comes from and you'll be able to tell what's going on in your vinyl setup. The 3012-R is a gift and will cut your experience time if you trust my input, many here and on Myles's site have tried the 3012-r and it's become their main tonearm.

david

Tango · Jan 2, 2018

ddk said:
. A tool like the AS and 3012 not only get out of the way but also help to bring out what's in those recordings. The SME 3012-r is very different from the other SME arms starting with core design it's as far as you can get from the IV & V. I know this will upset some but it's how it is, the 3012-r is like Fiji mineral water and the IV/V is Pepsi...They ALL lack extension and many are susceptible to all kinds of feedback and mudding affecting everything else too..

This sounds like my kind of arm. Does this mineral water gives better extension on both ends than the ortofon 297 Khun David.

Kind regards,
Tang

ddk · Jan 2, 2018

Tango said:
This sounds like my kind of arm. Does this mineral water gives better extension on both ends than the ortofon 297 Khun David.

Kind regards,
Tang

Quite a bit and let’s the music breath too. In comparison is like fresh clean mountain air to a well air conditioned room.

david

Tango · Jan 2, 2018

ddk said:
Quite a bit and let’s the music breath too. In comparison is like fresh clean mountain air to a well air conditioned room.

david

You have got to go to Iceland for the fresh cold water fall drink and air David. A week there lengthened my life a year.
The AS with this 3012 should be my Iceland then.

Tang

ddk · Jan 2, 2018

Tango said:
You have got to go to Iceland for the fresh cold water fall drink and air David. A week there lengthened my life a year.
The AS with this 3012 should be my Iceland then.

Tang

As magnificent as the fjords there!

david

spiritofmusic · Jan 2, 2018

My Straingauge is a bit like a trip to the Health Farm. All v proper and well behaved, getting nice and slim, no full fat food.
David, any thoughts on the SAEC 506 as an alternative to the 3012?
I ask because I’d never heard of it before until Gian’s chat re his Torque Marsala idler, but I love what I’m seeing re this arm. It seems to have been a major competitor to SME in the 70s, and some opinion states it was far superior.

microstrip · Jan 2, 2018

ddk said:
(...) The SME 3012-r is very different from the other SME arms starting with core design it's as far as you can get from the IV & V. I know this will upset some but it's how it is, the 3012-r is like Fiji mineral water and the IV/V is Pepsi. (...)

David,

Why not Cristal Champagne in place of Pepsi? Are you keeping the champagne for a digital analogy?

In a proper system the SME V has a master tape tonal balance - it was my feeling when I had it in the SME30. People valuating mostly its resonance free character will be happy to accept its bass performance, an area where for example a Graham 2.2 was more detailed.

I moved away from the SME V mostly because it does not allow for azimuth adjustment, and my cartridges needed some small adjustment for best performance. Surely SME advise was to ask for an exchange the cartridge ...

Bruce B · Jan 2, 2018

ddk said:
Everything has a flavor Peter the trick is finding components with the least amount of noticeable character that get out of the way of the main event, i.e. the recording. That's what the AS does, it's a foundation for the medium you'll be surprised how much information is hidden in the grooves of a standard lp. A tool like the AS and 3012 not only get out of the way but also help to bring out what's in those recordings. The SME 3012-r is very different from the other SME arms starting with core design it's as far as you can get from the IV & V. I know this will upset some but it's how it is, the 3012-r is like Fiji mineral water and the IV/V is Pepsi. They were designed when the tt trend was light belt drives and mostly suspended and what they have in common is shitty bass. They ALL lack extension and many are susceptible to all kinds of feedback and mudding affecting everything else too, the IV & V were designed with these tables in mind that's why I think the bass quality is so artificial and strangely with those arms.

By skill I meant arm/cartridge setup. The only way to get it is to play around and it doesn't have to be expensive carts, buy a lot of used ones for a couple of hundred bucks and go at it. All you need is a protractor, maybe a SHURE scale and your ears. The same goes for tonearms play around with a few that's where the experience comes from and you'll be able to tell what's going on in your vinyl setup. The 3012-R is a gift and will cut your experience time if you trust my input, many here and on Myles's site have tried the 3012-r and it's become their main tonearm.

david

Love Pepsi and shitty bass!!!

ddk · Jan 2, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
My Straingauge is a bit like a trip to the Health Farm. All v proper and well behaved, getting nice and slim, no full fat food.
David, any thoughts on the SAEC 506 as an alternative to the 3012?
I ask because I’d never heard of it before until Gian’s chat re his Torque Marsala idler, but I love what I’m seeing re this arm. It seems to have been a major competitor to SME in the 70s, and some opinion states it was far superior.

They’re pretty good Marc but compared to the 3102, how many SAECs do you want :b?

david

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