Koetsu

Syntax said:

The stones are bad with Triplanar and awful with any carbon Armtubes btw....demanding units ...has to do with energy transfer

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I happen to have different experience with stone body on carbon fiber arm tube. Coralstone on SAT sounded energetic, snappy with sharp transtient when music called for. I didnt think the combo would sound exciting when played Manger Jazz Variant percussion piece, but it did. The drum snap and ringings of bell were full of energy and crystal clear in my room. Then I switched Coralstone to Axiom, it was good but not heart beat raising like when it was on SAT. I nver heard the Coralstone with other arms.



Tang

But I think SAT is incredible and every cartridge do more than their best with SAT

My Tigereye Diamond sounds much better with SAT. The previous arm was Graham Elite.

Tango said:

I happen to have different experience with stone body on carbon fiber arm tube. Coralstone on SAT sounded energetic, snappy with sharp transtient when music called for. I didnt think the combo would sound exciting when played Manger Jazz Variant percussion piece, but it did. The drum snap and ringings of bell were full of energy and crystal clear in my room. Then I switched Coralstone to Axiom, it was good but not heart beat raising like when it was on SAT. I nver heard the Coralstone with other arms.

View attachment 38003

Tang

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So the Coralstone on SAT sounds better than the Coralstone on the Axiom? That is the comparison I have been waiting for!

Please tell us more details comparing and contrasting the SAT versus Axiom, both with Coralstone.

The SAT arm adds to any cartridge
I have an old old lyra kleos which sounds great

I think the arm is perhaps more important than the cartridge

Ron Resnick said:

So the Coralstone on SAT sounds better than the Coralstone on the Axiom? That is the comparison I have been waiting for!

Please tell us more details comparing and contrasting the SAT versus Axiom, both with Coralstone.

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Dear Ron,

First, These two arms are excellent. You have any one of them on your tt and you won’t regret. I will only write the differences I heard. It might not be much but if I write more I would be writing from my brain not my ears. I only have one Coralstone not two. So not a flick of a finger. The listening was done about an hour apart which was the time it took to set and adjust the cart. We did a-b-a test, with SAT being “a” just to confirm our hearing.

On Walking on the moon by Yuri Honing Trio, at 2/5 of the song when the Saxophone started to blast on high passage at the same time cymbals and snare drum were getting very busy with the bass snapping in the back, I heard each instrument better with less diffuse sound mixing up one another at high spl with SAT.

On Jazz Variants by the Ozone Percussion Group, the sound stage from SAT was a bit wider. With Axiom, drum sets were coming from behind my left horn tower. The xylophone were on the right..almost to the corner. But with SAT the drums and xylophone were about two more feet to the left and right. Not that I care much about biggest, deepest sound stage. I am more into energetic lively sound. But that how it was heard.

The snares snapped with quick sharp transient on both arms but a bit more with SAT. Hearing the stick hit the skin of snares just left me smiling. The sound of xylophone was also more crystal clear with that sweetness right at impact (I really don’t know how to describe in words...sorry) Although both decayed very nicely, SAT decay was more refine, keep hanging in the air approaching tape level.

On both songs, what grabbed me most was the quick sharp transient, bites and energy that make the listening exciting and involving from both arms. SAT seemed to transfer energy with higher resolution and we all felt that.

Pls keep in mind that any one of these two arms, when on any tt system would sound excellent. Differences are incremental. If I don’t have the luxury of switching within hour, I might not recognize them.

Kind regards,
Tang

Listening to Koetsus (Black and Onyx) on FRs at Shakti's, the descriptive variables that come to mind are different. Not so much to do with strikes of bass and snare drums. It has to do more with back to front and side to side stage, which is cohesive, dense, and flows well with energy and a continuity through the stage, but a different type of energy than say, what Lyra gives you on the macro side. Resolution and dynamics change with the headshells. Does it change on any of these parameters between the Axiom and the SAT?

bonzo75 said:

Listening to Koetsus (Black and Onyx) on FRs at Shakti's, the descriptive variables that come to mind are different. Not so much to do with strikes of bass and snare drums. It has to do more with back to front and side to side stage, which is cohesive, dense, and flows well with energy and a continuity through the stage, but a different type of energy than say, what Lyra gives you on the macro side. Resolution and dynamics change with the headshells. Does it change on any of these parameters between the Axiom and the SAT?

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Dear Kedar,

- I did say that I only write about the differences I heard in Axiom vs SAT with only Coralstone on. I was not writing a review of Axiom or SAT or Coralstone. What I did not write means unsignificant or no difference that I heard.

- How can I not be talking mostly about snare drums, bass and cymbals when the music I listened to were percussions and a jazz trio?

- My test was simple. Arm only with no other variables exceept Axiom with titanium screws and SAT with brass screws. I didnt switch around carts, headshells and arms like you did at Shakti's. Keep changing variables confuses the hell out of me.

- you seem to be imposing what you heard at Shakti's using FRs, different headshells, Black and Onyx to what I heard from Axiom and SAT with just a Coralstone. Are they really comparable? Did the cohesiveness you heard come from carts or from arms? Imo, carts do cohesive. Arms dont. Arms only duty is to flow the signals coming from cart without adding or subtracting. If FRs do cohesive too, then they are more than neutral and you are not hearing your cart as is. I was comparing arms not carts.

- Pardon my ignorance. I dont understand what you said about "the flows well with energy and continuity through a stage." Whats that in plain English?

Kind regards,
Tang

Tango said:

Dear Kedar,

- I did say that I only write about the differences I heard in Axiom vs SAT with only Coralstone on. I was not writing a review of Axiom or SAT.

- How can I not be talking mostly about snare drums, bass and cymbals when the music I listened to were percussions and a jazz trio?

- My test was simple. Arm only with no other variables exceept Axiom with titanium screws and SAT with brass screws. I didnt switch around carts, headshells and arms like you did at Shakti's. Keep changing variables confuses the hell out of me.

- you seem to be imposing what you heard at Shakti's using FRs, different headshells, Black and Onyx to what I heard from Axiom and SAT with just a Coralstone. Are they really comparable? Did the cohesiveness you heard come from carts or from arms? Imo, carts do cohesive. Arms dont. Arms only duty is to flow the signals coming from cart without adding or subtracting. If FRs do cohesive too, then they are more than neutral and you are not hearing your cart as is. I was comparing arms not carts.

- Pardon my ignorance. I dont understand what you said about "the flows well with energy and continuity through a stage." Whats that in plain English?

Kind regards,
Tang

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Hi Tang, I have no idea. I can tell you only what I heard there, and was wondering how that changed. Normally, when I read Lyra reviews, for example, irrespective of who writes some of the things relate, like dynamics, stage, immediacy, neutrality, etc. When we heard Koetsu at Shakti some different attributes jumped up more and which struck more, which I could not relate to here and in other Koetsu systems.

I have no idea if arms or carts do cohesion individually or together, as the cohesiveness there was not heard in other places with Koetsu. Or mostly with other carts. Hence my question, did SAT or Axiom change that in any way? Guess not.

More importantly, the attributes that struck me at Shakti's did not strike me in other places, including 4 coralstoned systems. So I just wanted to check if changing the arms made a difference in those. I think Koetsus sound very different in different implementations

I had tried to understand the Koetsu products over the last month, using 8 different Koetsu Cartridges and different tonearms.

Unfortunately, Koetsu is not simple. Means you cannot walk from a cheaper Koetsu to a more expensive Koetsu in the same environment and expect a "better" sound.

You just will get a "different" sound, you may like, you may like not.

I see the family of wood bodies, the family of Urushi bodies and the family of stone bodies as families of acoustic art in its own.

Listening to an Urushi Vermillion can be the "best" Koetsu experience , being better than any stone body in a given environment.

Same with the stone bodies, an Onyx platinum is so unique and different to Urushi, that it is difficult to love both....

The Coralstone Platinum is a kind of compromise between Onyx and Urushi, being sonically between both characteristics.

But.., you have the chance to fine-tune the Koetsu , using different headshells, headshell leads and so on.

The Urushi will play also on medium weight Tonearms, the stone bodies will prefer more heavy ones (just my personal experience)

So for me every single Koetsu is an individual peace of art. (I had three Onyx available for an comparison, the weight difference was significant, so a "real" comparison not possible, as the weight will change the effective mass of the tonearm/cartridge system. Stone or wood are natural , so the weight on constant dimensions will differ.

The optimization need to be done for the individual Koetsu in the system.

If done right, I love the performance over many others.

But it is also easy to get a kind of boring, not involving set up.

I prefer the FR 64s or FR 66s, my newest Tonearm with a good Koetsu harmony is the old Ikeda 407 , which has a solid steel armwand similar to FR66s.
This Ikeda 407 version is matt metal design, the later ones were (are) chrome or gold. The newer Version is fine, but the older Version outperforms with Koetsu.

It seems, that specially the stone bodies even like a heavy tonearm base. So using the Fidelity Research N-60 or B-60 heavy nuts, or even the Micro Seiki AST-10 do increase the performance of the FR and Ikeda tonearms with Koetsu .

Unfortunately I had so far no chance to listen to the Koetsu SAR or Axiom combination.

Thanks Ked

As someone with no knowledge of Koetsu, I get an inkling of what people are talking about with your explanations of Koetsu families

And that different may not be better for a given preference

Appreciate your putting pen to paper on this

bonzo75 said:

More importantly, the attributes that struck me at Shakti's did not strike me in other places, including 4 coralstoned systems. So I just wanted to check if changing the arms made a difference in those. I think Koetsus sound very different in different implementations

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I dont doubt your point of view on different sound from Koetsu given different imprementations. But does the cart's inherent sound or characters change with different implimentations? Can some attributes all of the sudden become more revealing such that they create different character when a different implimentation is done to a Koetsu? What Shakti was commenting about Koetsu production has lesser standardization leaves me thinking what is actually the sound of each Koetsu model? I have no experience with different Koetsu models and tweaks. My questions are beautiful mind pure curiosity.

Kind regards,
Tang

I'm still trying to wrap my head around someone calling my SME Series V arm sh*t......

Guess it's not "worthy"....

Totally agree Bruce B
Think that is very harsh
I like all SME arms especially on SME decks

In fact some older so called classic arms can sound very basic in my opinion

? SME V is an extemely good tonearm!

Uk Paul said:

? SME V is an extemely good tonearm!

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+1000

However, and remember, you do have to have a resolving enough system that can determine when and if there are losses coming from the headshell/ arm junction...or not- as in the case of the SME V!

Tango said:

Dear Ron,

First, These two arms are excellent. You have any one of them on your tt and you won’t regret. I will only write the differences I heard. It might not be much but if I write more I would be writing from my brain not my ears. I only have one Coralstone not two. So not a flick of a finger. The listening was done about an hour apart which was the time it took to set and adjust the cart. We did a-b-a test, with SAT being “a” just to confirm our hearing.

On Walking on the moon by Yuri Honing Trio, at 2/5 of the song when the Saxophone started to blast on high passage at the same time cymbals and snare drum were getting very busy with the bass snapping in the back, I heard each instrument better with less diffuse sound mixing up one another at high spl with SAT.

On Jazz Variants by the Ozone Percussion Group, the sound stage from SAT was a bit wider. With Axiom, drum sets were coming from behind my left horn tower. The xylophone were on the right..almost to the corner. But with SAT the drums and xylophone were about two more feet to the left and right. Not that I care much about biggest, deepest sound stage. I am more into energetic lively sound. But that how it was heard.

The snares snapped with quick sharp transient on both arms but a bit more with SAT. Hearing the stick hit the skin of snares just left me smiling. The sound of xylophone was also more crystal clear with that sweetness right at impact (I really don’t know how to describe in words...sorry) Although both decayed very nicely, SAT decay was more refine, keep hanging in the air approaching tape level.

On both songs, what grabbed me most was the quick sharp transient, bites and energy that make the listening exciting and involving from both arms. SAT seemed to transfer energy with higher resolution and we all felt that.

Pls keep in mind that any one of these two arms, when on any tt system would sound excellent. Differences are incremental. If I don’t have the luxury of switching within hour, I might not recognize them.

Kind regards,
Tang

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Dear Tang,

Thank you very much for this comparative analysis! I appreciate it!

From your post we definitely cannot conclude that the Axiom is the contemporary version of the FR-66S. Unfortunately you prove that the question remains more complicated than that.

Happy New Year, Tang!

Ron Resnick said:

Dear Tang,

Thank you very much for this comparative analysis! I appreciate it!

From your post we definitely cannot conclude that the Axiom is the contemporary version of the FR-66S. Unfortunately you prove that the question remains more complicated than that.

Happy New Year, Tang!

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Happy New Year Ron,

We heard comments that possible best match for stonebody Koetsu could be FR for the vintage arm and Axiom for the modern arm. My personal conclusion can only be drawn that SAT is also an excellent match on the modern arm camp. Both Axiom and SAT portray or present the sound of Coralstone in very similar manner except for what I wrote about the differences. I heard beautiful high and mid with not the best of bass from Coralstone in both carts. I described the sound I hear from Coralstone before somewhere that this cart has the cohesiveness that almost like it has its own interpretation of how it want present the music. This I still hear from both arms. What surprised me was the quickness the snap of this cart that I didn’t hear people stereotype this cart with. I wouldn’t realize if I didn’t play this cart with percussion music. I admit I was stuck with the stereotype, so I only listened vocal music with this cart before the test. Anyway Axiom and SAT fit my modern sounding system. It’s a kind of thing that if you don’t hear each in your system you can pick to live with any one of these. It would be interesting to have a FR on the Techdas to understand what Ked and Shakti were hearing. And when that happen would I able to tell which arm sound best with Coralstone to my ears.

Kind regards,
Tang

I've owned the FR arms with Koetsus--the synergy especially the FR66s is virtually unbeatable--sorry I'm not a fan of the Axiom-which

I'd say more suited to the Lyras rather than the heavier K's.

Ron could do worse than consider a 66S if the K's are in his sights as an accompanying Arm/Cart combo to Davids 3012R setups

They are for sale here at present I notice

And Happy 2018 to all WBF

BruceD

http://soundgate.net/listmaker/1.highend