why tweak?

audioguy · Nov 16, 2017

adyc said:
Tweak is like drug addiction. For audiophiles, it never stop. Just accept it.

Amen!!

For those on the journey to "possibly" extract every ounce of information from the equipment and music, tweaking is a never ending process. I no longer do so, but I don't want to count the money (and time and energy) I have previously spent doing just that.

I finally gave up on these very small "improvements" (though some were more just different rather than better) and settled in for spending my time and money on those changes that gave me a lot more improvement. And have not looked back.

Tango · Nov 16, 2017

audioguy said:
Amen!!

For those on the journey to "possibly" extract every ounce of information from the equipment and music, tweaking is a never ending process. I no longer do so, but I don't want to count the money (and time and energy) I have previously spent doing just that.

I finally gave up on these very small "improvements" (though some were more just different rather than better) and settled in for spending my time and money on those changes that gave me a lot more improvement. And have not looked back.

Of course it ends somewhere. Definitely not never ending. You said you ended it yourself sir

.
One of my friend in this forum told me to give my system a breathing room. I always keep reminding myself that. So my limit has been set and I never break my limit.

Kind regards,
Tang

gian60 · Nov 16, 2017

I am very very happy with my system,and sound for me is very good without tweak,but next year i will do different tweak to increase the quality
Luckily my room sound well,even if the wall empty,and i have some to avoid some reverberation and strange reflection.
I did nothing until now because i have no ideas how to do,i will try the felt of my friend

I have also very old and very bad rack,the first Target very resonant,so i will change with Artesania,a very good rack not expensive like CM or HRS

I never tried special feet like Stillpoint or Shun Mook because with idea to buy Artesania you cannot use

And i have some cable to change

I would like in future try one base like Stacker or Herzan,and try the ground active Telos,more simple and cheap that Tripoint and Entreq

So i am very curious to listen my system with all new tweaks

Thanks to everybody of this forum, i learn a lot about tweaks

chopchopbin · Nov 16, 2017

I have also very old and very bad rack,the first Target very resonant,so i will change with Artesania,a very good rack not expensive like CM or HRS

I also have several Target stands. I am going to try this product and see if it helps.

http://starsoundtechnologies.com/microBearingFill.php

You have to supply them with the dimensions of your stand and they will calculate how much fill material that you will need.

DaveC · Nov 16, 2017

KeithR said:
I also believe most "noise reducing" tweaks take away harmonics in exchange for the fake "black background" a lot of 'philes crave

I think harmonics being either damped or perpetuated is the basis for many "tweaks" but it depends on what it is, for example footers are certainly in this category, at least partially, but grounding improvements should reduce noise that is uncorrelated with the music and allow you to hear more low-level harmonic information.

On the subject of grounding I'd expect systems to react differently based on how the AC power is supplied, component design, i.e. how the IEC ground pin is connected to chassis and how these design decisions make the components in the system interact with each other, and the design of the interconnect and power cables. All these are more important factors vs slight degrees of how resolving a top end speaker is or how good the source is. In a system with all components on the "same page" as far as design, with power cables and interconnect cables that have decent ground leg designs and AC distribution systems that tie grounds together properly an aftermarket grounding solution will have much less effect. Grounding systems often are correcting poor design decisions or incompatibilities, in this case it will make a much larger difference. So in this case "ymmv" definitely applies...

Tango · Nov 16, 2017

Black background is something I avoid. Extreme low background noise or silence is not the same as black background. Music can pop out from silence but it doesn’t always come out from the dark. I get low noise from grounding but not blackness. But some cables or components I tried had this blackness almost like painting the background black. That to me doesn’t sound natural.

Tang

Stacore · Nov 16, 2017

gian60 said:
I would like in future try one base like Stacker or Herzan,and try the ground active Telos,more simple and cheap that Tripoint and Entreq

So i am very curious to listen my system with all new tweaks

Thanks to everybody of this forum, i learn a lot about tweaks

Thank you for considering us Gian, but I would object to call vibration-free operation or clean electrical power
merely tweaking. It's like with a food - one can eat almost whatever and still function, but is quality food
just a tweak to our lives

?

Cheers,

gian60 · Nov 16, 2017

I Know very well is important clean electrical power and i have a dedicated line only for the system with good cable
For other things i will develop new year
Thanks

I wanted write Stacore and computer wrote stacker

Stacore · Nov 16, 2017

gian60 said:
I Know very well is important clean electrical power and i have a dedicated line only for the system with good cable
For other things i will develop new year
Thanks

I wanted write Stacore and computer wrote stacker

At your service, Gian.

Thank you,

DaveC · Nov 16, 2017

Tango said:
Black background is something I avoid. Extreme low background noise or silence is not the same as black background. Music can pop out from silence but it doesn’t always come out from the dark. I get low noise from grounding but not blackness. But some cables or components I tried had this blackness almost like painting the background black. That to me doesn’t sound natural.

Tang

Yes, I think sometimes a "black" background is unnatural and sounds dead, like the effect of using soft sorbothane footers, while improving grounding can also be heard as a "blacker background" but the effects are really very different.

I still can't come up with a great explanation for why excessive damping and soft footer material can do this, it even happens if used under AC power distribution components. Perhaps some amount of resonance is good, idk...

thedudeabides · Nov 17, 2017

If done correctly, tweek products can offer an outstanding ROI. Like many others here, I've been doing it for years. The only caveat, as we all know, is you have to listen to make sure the item you have inserted does not just make the system sound "different" but "better". Therein lies the challenge.

A very recent example for me. I'm tuning a new speaker system in my new house and adjusting the amount of diffraction I get from the window behind the speakers by using various size plants.

Stacore · Nov 21, 2017

Stacore said:
I would object to call vibration-free operation or clean electrical power
merely tweaking. It's like with a food - one can eat almost whatever and still function, but is quality food
just a tweak to our lives ?

I quite like this thought of mine so let me elaborate on it a bit more

Thanks to my dietologist friend, I've been recently watching more closely what I eat and how it influences me. I've always eaten healthy but basically thought food is food, you need certain amount of calories, vitamines, fiber etc and call it done. But then I discovered all those seemingly subtle, at least for me then, variations that you can make. Cleaning out highly processed food and sugars, changing what you eat depending on the activity etc etc. The results are just great and influence not only the physical body but also the state of mind to some degree.

I think very much the same applies to our systems. When I still had time to solder my own gear, I was paying close attention to power supplies design and execution but zero attention to how the power is actually delivered to PS. Same with vibrations - I was just gluing some rubber or sorbothane here or there and called it done. Power and vibration considerations were just tweaking to me at that time. Then came the first necessity to look closer at the vibrations - after a move my TT started to catch the live of the house. Footsteps, washing machine etc. After some research I designed my own support, going at the end totally crazy with a 600kg rack with two pneumatic suspensions (one for TT, one for the electronics). I did solve the "first order" problem of the footsteps and the washing machine but at the same time I've discovered a totally new to me "higher order" or more subtle effects of increased resolution, which manifested in a whole spectrum of improvements - better articulation, increased micro and macro dynamics, much more involving sound etc etc. This was sort of an epiphany! At the same time, the increased resolution showed weaknesses somewhere else. E.g. sometimes violinists sounded like they wanted to saw their instruments in half. So I went a bit crazy again and cut through one of the concrete walls installing three dedicated power lines plus took a look at the power cables. That again brought a fantastic effect of much more "good electricity days" with cleaner HF and unpleasant HF halo around the sounds.

So just like our bodies can be amazingly abused food-wise and still function sort of OK, our equipment will also play with whatever power and whatever vibration background. Not only play, but a cello will sound like a cello and trumpet like a trumpet. But it will be nowhere close to showing the real potential of a system and a recording! Now, having done the path I've described, I no longer think of power line and vibration control efforts as of merely tweaking, but rather as something necessary if one treats listening seriously. For example, I wouldn't call proper vibration control devices an accessory, but rather an equipment-room interface. Speaker-room interface seems a good analogy here.

Just my 2c to the subject.
Cheers,

Mike Lavigne · Nov 21, 2017

Stacore said:
I quite like this thought of mine so let me elaborate on it a bit more Thanks to my dietologist friend, I've been recently watching more closely what I eat and how it influences me. I've always eaten healthy but basically thought food is food, you need certain amount of calories, vitamines, fiber etc and call it done. But then I discovered all those seemingly subtle, at least for me then, variations that you can make. Cleaning out highly processed food and sugars, changing what you eat depending on the activity etc etc. The results are just great and influence not only the physical body but also the state of mind to some degree.

I think very much the same applies to our systems. When I still had time to solder my own gear, I was paying close attention to power supplies design and execution but zero attention to how the power is actually delivered to PS. Same with vibrations - I was just gluing some rubber or sorbothane here or there and called it done. Power and vibration considerations were just tweaking to me at that time. Then came the first necessity to look closer at the vibrations - after a move my TT started to catch the live of the house. Footsteps, washing machine etc. After some research I designed my own support, going at the end totally crazy with a 600kg rack with two pneumatic suspensions (one for TT, one for the electronics). I did solve the "first order" problem of the footsteps and the washing machine but at the same time I've discovered a totally new to me "higher order" or more subtle effects of increased resolution, which manifested in a whole spectrum of improvements - better articulation, increased micro and macro dynamics, much more involving sound etc etc. This was sort of an epiphany! At the same time, the increased resolution showed weaknesses somewhere else. E.g. sometimes violinists sounded like they wanted to saw their instruments in half. So I went a bit crazy again and cut through one of the concrete walls installing three dedicated power lines plus took a look at the power cables. That again brought a fantastic effect of much more "good electricity days" with cleaner HF and unpleasant HF halo around the sounds.

So just like our bodies can be amazingly abused food-wise and still function sort of OK, our equipment will also play with whatever power and whatever vibration background. Not only play, but a cello will sound like a cello and trumpet like a trumpet. But it will be nowhere close to showing the real potential of a system and a recording! Now, having done the path I've described, I no longer think of power line and vibration control efforts as of merely tweaking, but rather as something necessary if one treats listening seriously. For example, I wouldn't call proper vibration control devices an accessory, but rather an equipment-room interface. Speaker-room interface seems a good analogy here.

Just my 2c to the subject.
Cheers,

to further carry forward your food-health analogy and point out why I think resonance control is a tweak, and not part of the 'first part'.......consider that if we are eating the wrong amount of calories for our physiology, stature, or activity level.......then changing the type of food will have little effect. the first order of business is regulating the amount, next is the quality and synergy of what is best and when.

if we are 50 pounds overweight and do not first regulate intake, we cannot begin to get the benefit of the better food itself. first things first. the correct amount of less wonderful food will come closer to helping us than continuing to gorge ourselves on perfect food.

typically most health conscious people do combine proper food regulation with higher quality and sensible food choices, but not all do.

just like most serious system builders do pay attention to a level of resonance control along with getting the basics right. but sensible system synergy comes first.

first things first, then get into the minutia.

now.....if I was in the resonance control business.....

Stacore · Nov 21, 2017

Yes of course, Mike. This is self-understood that a bad equipment will stay a bad equipment whatever you do.
But in any case my moral is that the equipment must be fed clean power and operate vib free to see its
real potential....or a lack of it

Cheers,

Lee · Nov 21, 2017

DaveC said:
Yes, I think sometimes a "black" background is unnatural and sounds dead, like the effect of using soft sorbothane footers, while improving grounding can also be heard as a "blacker background" but the effects are really very different.

I still can't come up with a great explanation for why excessive damping and soft footer material can do this, it even happens if used under AC power distribution components. Perhaps some amount of resonance is good, idk...

I've tried all sorts of footers from sorbothan pucks to Cardas myrtlewood to various spikes. The best I have found so far are the Synergistic MiGs. It's pretty cool how they can be tuned by facing down or up depending on the desired effect.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 21, 2017

Stacore said:
Yes of course, Mike. This is self-understood that a bad equipment will stay a bad equipment whatever you do.
But in any case my moral is that the equipment must be fed clean power and operate vib free to see its
real potential....or a lack of it
Cheers,

+1 completely agree on the end point. both of those are needed and I'm hugely invested in both as you know.

my point is that unless you get your speakers and amps and room to work really well together before you start getting over-the-top with tweaks, you will not know what is causing what. if you have glare from poor acoustics you will go down the road of adding tweaks to solve an inherent set-up issue. then how are you going to diagnose the real problem when you've covered over it? answer......you will never even know it happened and the level of ultimate performance of your system will be limited. like adding one coloration to fix another coloration. and with every trade-off resolution gets thrown away.....and you are farther from the musical essence.

so hold off on tweaks until you feel like you are really happy as things are. then tweaks will become a net gain, instead of a band aid clouding the problem.

when people ask me about grounding boxes and Herzan's I ask them where they are in their level of total system satisfaction. these are cherry on top products, not fundamental building blocks.

if you need a tweak to make the system listenable, then re-group and consider what the real issue might be.

spiritofmusic · Nov 21, 2017

Mike, I can tell you that the move to my new room is hands down a transformative upgrade.
I could have had your system in my old room, and I would take my current room/system no hesitation.
With acoustics and power truly sorted, I now have the blank canvas/top quality fuel/optimised mutririon to make the very most of my system.
And this is leading to certain changes not working out (using Jarek’s analogy, the wrong vitamin shot), for reasons I think I’m starting to understand, and other changes being wholly holistic and positive.
Every tweak/system enhancement that works seems to work dramatically, augment the previous ones, and just broaden and deepen performance parameters.
Atm, Stacores, Sablon Elites power cords and SR Black fuses are just maxxing the energy component of performance, I can really feel the leading edge and weight of notes, with no hint of increased glare or earthboundness.
My sound continues to lose its shackles.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 21, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
Mike, I can tell you that the move to my new room is hands down a transformative upgrade.
I could have had your system in my old room, and I would take my current room/system no hesitation.
With acoustics and power truly sorted, I now have the blank canvas/top quality fuel/optimised mutririon to make the very most of my system.
And this is leading to certain changes not working out (using Jarek’s analogy, the wrong vitamin shot), for reasons I think I’m starting to understand, and other changes being wholly holistic and positive.
Every tweak/system enhancement that works seems to work dramatically, augment the previous ones, and just broaden and deepen performance parameters.
Atm, Stacores, Sablon Elites power cords and SR Black fuses are just maxxing the energy component of performance, I can really feel the leading edge and weight of notes, with no hint of increased glare or earthboundness.
My sound continues to lose its shackles.

Marc, it seems you have found, or are finding, your system baseline and needed to approach any tweaks freshly, and have done that.

and since your baseline is at a much higher point than your previous room, the context and relevance of tweaks is different and mostly better as they have more performance to work with.

I'm happy for you on this progress with all the effort, and moving and all that. good things should and have happened.

microstrip · Nov 21, 2017

Stacore said:
Thank you for considering us Gian, but I would object to call vibration-free operation or clean electrical power
merely tweaking. It's like with a food - one can eat almost whatever and still function, but is quality food
just a tweak to our lives ?

Cheers,

Although it is perhaps semantics I object to such analogies.

IMHO the devices you refer in general are not understood and are simply tweaks that you must try and judge by yourself. IMHO no one knows what means exactly "vibration-free operation" (some people claim that they get it coupling, not isolating, because the "nasty" vibrations are those self-created by the operation of the device) and clean electrical power is a too ambiguous statement (some well known power supply conditioners are simply active noise injectors ...).

BTW, how do you define quality food?

Stacore · Nov 22, 2017

microstrip said:
Although it is perhaps semantics I object to such analogies.

IMHO the devices you refer in general are not understood and are simply tweaks that you must try and judge by yourself. IMHO no one knows what means exactly "vibration-free operation" (some people claim that they get it coupling, not isolating, because the "nasty" vibrations are those self-created by the operation of the device) and clean electrical power is a too ambiguous statement (some well known power supply conditioners are simply active noise injectors ...).

Micro, yes it looks like you want to engage me in a semantical discussion, which I will be avoiding as much as I can

That we do not understand clearly the psychology of music perception doesn't mean we are completely blind. Simple physics and common sense are
IMHO good guides here.

If I take a powerline disconected from a household lines, where all the noise from switching PS-es, LED and fluorescent lights, washing machines, microwaves etc etc is damped, then I call this line clean. Although you'd probably better call it a "first approximation to clean". Take arroz marisco and put there sea shells from let say the Porto harbor. They will have probably most of the Mendeleev table. You don't have to understand how a particular heavy metal or oil residue acts on your body to know it is not good. Similar with vibrations, if I put eq on a simple platform made of a kid bike tire, than I already cut big deal of LF vibration and come closer to a vib clean operation.

microstrip said:
BTW, how do you define quality food?

Try moving from Mediterranean to Northen Europe and you will define that v quickly

/I did it few years ago/

Cheers,

why tweak?

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