why tweak?

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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tonight I've been listening to some redbook rips from some CD's Jazdoc gave me that he wanted to hear in my system, a number of them. and they sound absolutely amazing. these transcend any idea of format limitations into pure musical wonderfulness. it could be tape for all I know.

the synergy i'm hearing from my system has risen to a whole different level now. and i'm a bit stunned......which compelled me to post this. if this is just a collection of incoherent thoughts I apologize....but trying to relate this as best I can.

lately I've gone a bit crazy on tweaks. the MSB Select II is not a bad piece to aim the tweaks at......there is that too.

I've added the Tripoint Elite onto the sources, which allowed me to move the Troy Sig to the amps, added grounding cables to the main speakers. upgraded the Entreq cables to the infinity level. added the Hardpoint Trinia and Serene footers to the power supplies of the MSB and the SGM server. the Taiko Tana TS-150 with it's new LPS is still in-bound to be added to this mix in the next few weeks. not sure where it will be inserted into the mix.

and tonight, listening to redbook files.....according to some the most lowly of high end source material, it is superb without any qualification and i'm loving every second of it.

why tweak? my sense is that each tweak properly done is really a multiplier of other tweaks. not just additive, but enhancing the effect of the other one.

take a mature system and remove those last bits of distortion, optimize each piece......and the music comes alive.

why tweak?

added note; these tweaks also are boosting the analog side of things, but that is a story for another time. I have some new (to me) fresh vinyl I've been enjoying too.
 
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Ron Resnick

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That is very exciting there, Mike, and I'm very happy for you! Thank you for sharing your excitement and enthusiasm!

Is it possible to quantify and estimate (on a scale of 0 to 100) the overall incremental improvement wrought in the aggregate by all of your tweaks versus the system without all of the tweaks? For example, do you think all of the tweaks, in the aggregate, get you 25% closer to a theoretical full suspension of disbelief?
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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It’s harder to do this than you might imagine, Ron.
For instance, on setting up in the new room, things sounded great prior to any maxxing out w tweaks, including stock power cords out of the domestic sockets.
Fast fwd balanced power, dedicated lines, audiophile power cords and fuses, pneumatic isolation, and the sound is transformed.
Recently going back to try just the stock cords, no transformer, no platforms etc, and the drop in pleasure was palpable. Maybe 50% worse.
 
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Tango

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I tweak because my amps, preamp, phono, tts, tape machine, speakers, normal cables cannot give the realism I am searching for in my given environment. They just give me natural tone, excellent resolution, great sound stage, great mids, great bass, great air, great dynamic, etc.

I could keep changing the above as much as possible, it would still only fullfill the fundamental hifi aspects of sound not the level of realism I am looking for.

I find clean power and grounding reducing/blocking emi/rfi are essential in getting excellent realism from my system in current environment. These areas can be obtained through tweaks.

With Tripoint Troy and Empress my sound is no longer a surface. They appear as object with texture, dimension and depth. I am sure Mike and only others who are using these tweaks know exactly what I am talking about.

The Schnerzinger devices, however they work, give me the added energy coming from each instrument even though my horns are already doing this better than most speakers on this aspect. They also bring about the level of clarity, highs and snap closer to what I can get from rtr.

Cables and pc. These are like heart and blood veins.


Thats why I tweak.

Kind regards,
Tang
 
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adyc

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Tweak is like drug addiction. For audiophiles, it never stop. Just accept it.
 

bonzo75

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Tweak is like drug addiction. For audiophiles, it never stop. Just accept it.

+1. Why tweak is like saying why upgrade or why swap. Because it puts the audio in audiophilia
 

Lee

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Feb 3, 2011
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Great post Mike. In my own system, I have been adding Synergistic Research tweaks one at a time and they have all been proven additive to the musical experience.

For me, the biggest thing is lowering the noise floor which allows all of the quality components to show what they are capable of. Power and grounding seem to be the most powerful formula here.

tonight I've been listening to some redbook rips from some CD's Jazdoc gave me that he wanted to hear in my system, a number of them. and they sound absolutely amazing. these transcend any idea of format limitations into pure musical wonderfulness. it could be tape for all I know.

the synergy i'm hearing from my system has risen to a whole different level now. and i'm a bit stunned......which compelled me to post this. if this is just a collection of incoherent thoughts I apologize....but trying to relate this as best I can.

lately I've gone a bit crazy on tweaks. the MSB Select II is not a bad piece to aim the tweaks at......there is that too.

I've added the Tripoint Elite onto the sources, which allowed me to move the Troy Sig to the amps, added grounding cables to the main speakers. upgraded the Entreq cables to the infinity level. added the Hardpoint Trinia and Serene footers to the power supplies of the MSB and the SGM server. the Taiko Tana TS-150 with it's new LPS is still in-bound to be added to this mix in the next few weeks. not sure where it will be inserted into the mix.

and tonight, listening to redbook files.....according to some the most lowly of high end source material, it is superb without any qualification and i'm loving every second of it.

why tweak? my sense is that each tweak properly done is really a multiplier of other tweaks. not just additive, but enhancing the effect of the other one.

take a mature system and remove those last bits of distortion, optimize each piece......and the music comes alive.

why tweak?

added note; these tweaks also are boosting the analog side of things, but that is a story for another time. I have some new (to me) fresh vinyl I've been enjoying too.
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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That is very exciting there, Mike, and I'm very happy for you! Thank you for sharing your excitement and enthusiasm!

Is it possible to quantify and estimate (on a scale of 0 to 100) the overall incremental improvement wrought in the aggregate by all of your tweaks versus the system without all of the tweaks? For example, do you think all of the tweaks, in the aggregate, get you 25% closer to a theoretical full suspension of disbelief?

thanks Ron. this morning again i'm feeling that same magic.

as far as looking objectively at the effect of tweaks, I can take a stab at that this morning. but with the caution that after more reflection my view on this might modify. or maybe after the Taiko Tana arrives that might shake me up too.

and my comments are not meant to be applied to other rooms or systems.

I would view speaker set-up and acoustic room treatment as quite a profound level of effect, maybe up to 25-30% or even more in terms of musical involvement. at least for me with dynamic speakers, twin towers, and a large room. maybe dipoles or horns are less dependent on room acoustics than my set-up wanting all types of music, at all frequencies, to be optimized. and that this fundamental room-speaker synergy aspect is the foundation for tweaks. to me it's critical that the macro moves are done so the micro moves of tweaks can take things that last little bit. if the system does not allow for small changes to be evident then those small changes will not yield good ROI. the level of maturity of a system will determine tweak effectiveness. tweaks are not be what is done first. it's the cherry on top.

all that said, i'd say that tweaks I've done are in the 1%-4% realm in terms of added musical value. and as I alluded to above, that tweaks tend to magnify each other......like opening multiple doors in a wall.......each opening geometrically adds to the flow of reality.

but if you look at the law of diminishing returns for gear; it's normal for improvements of that 1-4% degree to double the cost of an amp, or speakers, or a dac or preamp.

so if every piece of gear in my system is 1-4% better, then my ROI on tweaks is very profound. and if i'm already at the top gear level, then tweaks are my only current access to that level. and finally; tweaks tend to take things into a realm beyond concepts of particular biases and gear preferences. tubes? horns? analog? we stop thinking about that to some degree.

that's my stream of consciousness for this morning.

YMMV, just my 2 cents, and all that stuff.

so if i'm sitting here thinking I might be able to add more tweaks that push the whole system performance, or maybe buy another cartridge, or arm, or tt, or maybe more tapes.......here is where one's priorities get challenged. there is no right answer to that. I guess if your system responds to tweaks effectively, then it's a table you tend to want to eat at.
 
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Jazzhead

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Surprised that it's only 1-4 % in your estimate . I would have thought that the Tripoint + Entreq + Herzan + Harpoints would equate to between a 15-20% uplift . :confused:. So would you be able to listen satisfactorily , if you were to pull out the above mentioned .. I think not , once experienced there's no going back. That in itself should be worth a lot more than 4%.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Surprised that it's only 1-4 % in your estimate . I would have thought that the Tripoint + Entreq + Herzan + Harpoints would equate to between a 15-20% uplift . :confused:. So would you be able to listen satisfactorily , if you were to pull out the above mentioned .. I think not , once experienced there's no going back. That in itself should be worth a lot more than 4%.

4% is a lot. it really is.

if i think about the performance difference between a dart 108 and the dart 458 mono blocks for listening to most music, it's not 10% or 7%......it's 4-5%.

but there is over $100k difference in the price.

and if I can push the 458's to 4% higher what is that worth?

same with the difference between the Aqua Formula and the MSB Select II. the MSB is not 10% or 15% better. it's 5% or 6% better......but $100k more. but it is a bridge too far for other digital. and how can I get 4% better than the MSB?

with tweaks. there is no other way to that level.

that is just how it looks from where I sit. when I hear slight differences with small tweak changes these are fractions of 1% better, but still significant......if your system is at that truth level. so i'm not painting with any broad brush here.
 
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treitz3

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Dec 25, 2011
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Hello all,

Even if I tweak something within my rig and I only get one, maybe only two percent perceived increase an any aspect of the reproductive effort with no loss or detriment to the end result? I'll take it, embrace it and love it. Sometimes this tweak may be a low cost one. Other times, it may not even be considered a tweak by some, given the cost of said "tweak".....but I'll take it nonetheless. To me, that's half the fun in this hobby!

Tom
 

bonzo75

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Surprised that it's only 1-4 % in your estimate . I would have thought that the Tripoint + Entreq + Herzan + Harpoints would equate to between a 15-20% uplift . :confused:. So would you be able to listen satisfactorily , if you were to pull out the above mentioned .. I think not , once experienced there's no going back. That in itself should be worth a lot more than 4%.

I think everyone will have their own perspective of scale. For some the speaker room combination is 70 percent.
 

jep123

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I have done my share of tweaking over a period of 30 + years as an audiophile. All kinds of tweaks. At the moment my only tweaks are Stillpoints under the speakers (they come with those mounted) and 3 x Stabilian feet under my Absolare amplifier. That`s it. My CH equipment are placed on the rack directly. The acoustics are taken care off.

My point is:
I do understand that one tries to get the best possible sound. But all this experimenting with all kinds of tweaks disturbs the listening sessions in that (at least in my case) I am listening to improvements rather than focusing on the music. And not all tweaks are improving the sound, many times one get another type of sound. The problem with tweaking is that it never stops. At the moment I am more than happy with the system as it is and do not feel the need for "improvements". I also "confess" that I am using the standard powercords for my CH devices and no power conditioner. I have a dedicated AC line to the system, if that is a tweak.

This coming from a person that have spent thousands of dollars on racks, feet, cable lifters etc etc.

One more thing:
Try the Belden 8402 IC cables in a high end system, you might be surprised :).
 

microstrip

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+1 In my opinion tweaking is 1/3 of the fun in audio...

And this is the big problem evaluating the (subjective) action of tweaks in an objective (quantitative) scale.

Our perception of sound quality is always connected to the enjoyment we get from our systems. Many times the greater enjoyment comes from discovering new things in a recording or new capacities in a system - things that have been there, but due to very some small changes become suddenly noticeable.

In principle we are the best and worst tweak evaluators - as we know pretty well our systems we are in an excellent position to appreciate differences, but as we are having fun we risk our fun is behind a better mood to find differences.

IMHO we are only good tweak evaluators when we list at less three times as many negative tweaks and its consequences as the found positive tweaks. But this would be very political incorrect and unfriendly in a forum! :)

BTW, should we separate tweaking from tuning?
 

Audiocrack

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Aug 10, 2012
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thanks Ron. this morning again i'm feeling that same magic.

as far as looking objectively at the effect of tweaks, I can take a stab at that this morning. but with the caution that after more reflection my view on this might modify. or maybe after the Taiko Tana arrives that might shake me up too.

and my comments are not meant to be applied to other rooms or systems.

I would view speaker set-up and acoustic room treatment as quite a profound level of effect, maybe up to 25-30% or even more in terms of musical involvement. at least for me with dynamic speakers, twin towers, and a large room. maybe dipoles or horns are less dependent on room acoustics than my set-up wanting all types of music, at all frequencies, to be optimized. and that this fundamental room-speaker synergy aspect is the foundation for tweaks. to me it's critical that the macro moves are done so the micro moves of tweaks can take things that last little bit. if the system does not allow for small changes to be evident then those small changes will not yield good ROI. the level of maturity of a system will determine tweak effectiveness. tweaks are not be what is done first. it's the cherry on top.

all that said, i'd say that tweaks I've done are in the 1%-4% realm in terms of added musical value. and as I alluded to above, that tweaks tend to magnify each other......like opening multiple doors in a wall.......each opening geometrically adds to the flow of reality.

but if you look at the law of diminishing returns for gear; it's normal for improvements of that 1-4% degree to double the cost of an amp, or speakers, or a dac or preamp.

so if every piece of gear in my system is 1-4% better, then my ROI on tweaks is very profound. and if i'm already at the top gear level, then tweaks are my only current access to that level. and finally; tweaks tend to take things into a realm beyond concepts of particular biases and gear preferences. tubes? horns? analog? we stop thinking about that to some degree.

that's my stream of consciousness for this morning.

YMMV, just my 2 cents, and all that stuff.

so if i'm sitting here thinking I might be able to add more tweaks that push the whole system performance, or maybe buy another cartridge, or arm, or tt, or maybe more tapes.......here is where one's priorities get challenged. there is no right answer to that. I guess if your system responds to tweaks effectively, then it's a table you tend to want to eat at.

Just that I understand you correctly Mike: are you saying that adding inter alia the Tripoint components - including the Troy Elite - in your system falls also in your 1%--4% range? If that would indeed be the case, we experience the additional benefits of the Tripoint components very differently. As a matter of fact, I do not consider the Tripoint components as tweaks but as 'regular' audio devices that are crucial to get the best out of the audio system.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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4% is a lot. it really is.

if i think about the performance difference between a dart 108 and the dart 458 mono blocks for listening to most music, it's not 10% or 7%......it's 4-5%.

but there is over $100k difference in the price.

and if I can push the 458's to 4% higher what is that worth?

same with the difference between the Aqua Formula and the MSB Select II. the MSB is not 10% or 15% better. it's 5% or 6% better......but $100k more. but it is a bridge too far for other digital. and how can I get 4% better than the MSB?

with tweaks. there is no other way to that level.

that is just how it looks from where I sit. when I hear slight differences with small tweak changes these are fractions of 1% better, but still significant......if your system is at that truth level. so i'm not painting with any broad brush here.

I think you are entering a dangerous game that can be easily misunderstood. Using the Darts to show an example of tweak scaling can be understood as if the difference between them can be recoverable with tweaks, and IMHO underestimates the real differences between both units.
 

bonzo75

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Feb 26, 2014
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I had the crown class D amp at home on temporary basis. It sounded bad. I put stillpoints under it, sounded worse

I put Shun Mook resonators under it, it sounded better than my AR ref 110 (the added power really helped the analysis omega I had on demo then)
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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For me, the new room is a 70% impvt
But I could also call it 1000% depending on how I interpret the q
Everything else, 30% or again 100%
Now this means that all my changes equate to 100% or maybe even 1000% plus 30% of this, ie 1300%.
The room has been the gateway/magnifier to everything else.
Now I’m getting spooky stellar synergy between Stacores and Sablon Elites, that would have been more incremental in the last room.
Ked called my old room out for what it was, he was dead right.
Now I would go so far as to say the system/components provide 20% of the overall quality, the room 50%, everything else 30%.
That fits my spend, w my components at £70k forming 35% of my total spend so far.
 

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