Anyone heard the MBL 116F?

ack

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Another $20-30K range contender... anyone have any experience with it?
 

slowGEEZR

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Hi. I listened to it at RMAF in 2009 and really liked it. When I upgraded from my Martin Logans to the WP8s I could just as well gone with the MBLs. I think it's a great speaker.
 

thedudeabides

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Hi ack,

I just joined this forum and will be taking possession of the 116E in a couple of weeks.

Will provide my thoughts if you want some feedback.

Hi Steve.

GG
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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Hey Gordon,

welcome. Peter here, aka 'spectral' on MLOC... I got your PM the other day. Looks like MBL representation is the US is currently questionable. Still interested in your thoughts vs the Summit, as you also listen to mostly classical. I gotta say again, though, the Summit X next to the Magico Q5 was really on par (you'll find another mini thread by me on this); and as I write this, I realize I forgot to mention that the X actually excelled the Q5 in other areas, like the timpani sounded more realistic on it (same recordings, of course).

You'll have fun on this site...
 

thedudeabides

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Hi Peter,

Looks like a really good site. I will check in and hopefully provide some good comments.

Gordon
 

thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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Impressions after 14 months

HI all,

Just cruising the site and came upon this thread. Thank you Moderator for your gentle prodding. This really is a great site with some folks I already know.

Thought I would share my impressions on the legacy 116, which was replaced by the "F" model a couple of years ago. The legacy model is ported. The "F" version is not. I was told that there were not any major changes but who knows. Information regarding the MBL line is very difficult to come by. One would certainly expect the current version to have improved bass pitch definition. Since my last speaker was the Martin Logan Summits, my comparisons will be related to that speaker as well as the the other three ML speakers I've owned over some 23 plus years.

First off, I tend to be a bit slow in finding final speaker location and working with room treatments to convince myself I have finally optimized what I can. My method is to make a small change, say in speaker position, and then listen to that for an extended period of time, with all musical genres but biased towards jazz and classical, to become familiar with what that change has affected.

When I first got the speaker, in February 2011, I was surprised at the difference between the Summit and the 116, within the context of how the speaker "loaded" the room. Suffice to say that it did this in a more uniform manner but with a dominance in the lower bass that I found distracting. At first it was "Wow, more bass" but as we all know, too much low end compromises the musicality of all frequencies above that narrow band.

So I purchased some new speaker cones and acoustic panels to tame the beast. They were partially successful but I continued to have this feeling that things were still a bit slow and loose in the bottom octaves. And I continued to adjust room treatments and speaker placement.

I had my Cary CDP modded over Christmas and have been using the latest iteration of Ron's optical disc mat, which brought some tangible / positive results but also provided more energy to the mid / low bass region.

Fast forward to last month. I kept pulling the speakers further out into the room and finally found a place that seems to project a "balanced" frequency presentation accompanied by very good imaging, dimensionality, and tonality.

Then I tried one more thing that, as the Dude said in the Big Lebowski, "tied the room together". No it wasn't a rug but some lead strips, with adhesive backing, sold by Marigo Audio. Per Marigo, what these strips do is absorb heat created by the vibration transmitted through the spokes of the driver. Absorb heat, kill vibrations. Pretty simple concept and actually grounded in defensible science.

So I installed on all four bass drivers and listened. After a few minutes, I realized that the bass "bump" I was hearing was significantly attenuated. More space, more dimensionality, better overall body, and definitely more musical.

Comparing the Summit to the 116's, I'd say the lower bass in the ML was tighter and better defined. The 116, in its current state, is fuller and creates a better overall foundation to the music. The immersive quality of the Summits (the proverbial disappearing act that stats do so well) is equaled and improved upon given the "omni" tweeter and midrange, at least in my room.

I like to sit off axis and the MBL's are one of the few speakers that allow one to do so without the soundstage collapsing. Yes, imaging is better in the sweet spot but sitting off to the side does not compromise the sense of space and dimensionality as is often the case with most transducers.

One of the things that was difficult was determining the amount of toe in. You not only have the omnis, operating above 2K or so but also two side firing woofers and mid bass drivers per speaker. Suffice to say that I think I found the correct amount that maximizes imaging and depth along with a tonal balance that is full bodied and very easy to listen to. In fact, I would say the top end is a bit on the "soft" side of the equation without sacrificing any of the spatial cues of the musical picture.

So there's the update. I apologize for the delay in posting, although given what I've done over the past 14 months or so, the absence of comment was probably a good thing given the "moving target" I've been trying to nail down.

I do look forward to posting more on this site in addition to my activity on the Martin Logan Owners site.

Happy listening to all.

Gordon
 
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caesar

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Nice post. How close is the 116 to the much more expensive 101 E?
 

thedudeabides

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Hi Caesar,

I think current list prices for the 101E MKII and the 116F are $70K and $30K respectively.

GG
 

thedudeabides

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Having heard all the MBL's, except the Extreme, at shows over the years, I would say a significant amount, given the fact that the tweeter and midrange omni pods cover everything above 2K hertz or so.

The MBL essence, from my perspective, is an extremely open, transparent window into the music. The speakers really do disappear for the most part including off-axis listening. And the changes I've made over the last 14 months have helped substantially in that regard.

As with any hybrid, the challenge is to integrate traditional bass drivers and, in the case of the 116 and 111, mid bass drivers with the pods that employ a totally different technology and sophistication.

The 101 contains a mid bass sphere that further extends the benefits of the MBL pod technology but, as you may know, also requires a major (read expensive) step up in amplifier power. My Pass Labs drives the 116's to more than acceptable volume levels. Having said that, the going wisdom is that you need very powerful / SS high current mono amps in the range of 400 to 600 watts minimum to make the 101 perform up to its potential.

If one can afford the 101 and the requisite gear to optimize performance, I say go for it. If you are like most who don't have a C Note tree growing in the back yard, my sense is that you will be quite happy with the 116's performance.

A final note. Assuming one is not uber wealthy and you are interested in pursuing purchasing any MBL speaker, you can find some incredible deals on the used market. That's how I purchased mine. For example, there is currently a 101E MKII on audiogon for $36K. You should be able to pick up a 111 in the $17K +/- range (I've seen this model as low as $11K) and the 116 in the $10K area.

Hope that answers your question.

Best,

GG
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Thanks for the thorough comments. I am very happy for you that you got your bass issues under control.
 

thedudeabides

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Hi caeser,

THANK YOU for your interest.

Just read through the "Fremer on MBL" thread. The one that blew up and was closed. Very unfortunate.

Interesting that some have such a negative reaction to a speaker that I find absolutely musical and compelling. Also that the person who loves Martin Logan stats (gregad I believe) and apparently can't relate to the MBL sound. I say that because, prior to buying the 116's, I owned, in order of possession, the CLS2A's, the Aerius, the SL3's, and lastly the Summit over a period of some 20 years plus. Suffice to say I know the ML sound and find, in my room, that the 116's do everything the ML's do quite well and more.

Don't know where you are located but I invite you or any other members to come visit me and have a listen. I live in Jackson, WY.

FWIW, my system pictures are posted on the ML site. Absent the speaker change, everything else is pretty much the same.

Best,

Gordon
 

DEV

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Oct 19, 2011
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Interesting that some have such a negative reaction to a speaker that I find absolutely musical and compelling. Also that the person who loves Martin Logan stats (gregad I believe) and apparently can't relate to the MBL sound.
Best, Gordon

I agree and really just don't understand either, really leaves me scratching my head. :confused: Adding to that in his own pics posted provided shown it wasn't even the 101E's which he referred to saying he had actually listened to. Each to their own but to make such a bold statement as he did saying they are ""Dull and Lifless." was rediculous and so far from being the thruth. I have no problem with anyone not likeing them but misleading others reading is wrong.

I have found a match made in heaven for my MBL 101E's, pairing them up with Vac Sig pre and the Statement 450 mono blocks, totally got me off the merry-go-round, don't even think of others and just enjoy :D

I have never heard those specific MBL's so I can not comment but have heard other speakers you make mention too.

Enjoy that's what it's all about. :D
 

thedudeabides

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Hi DEV,

Dull and lifeless would be the last two words that I would use to describe the MBL house sound. I am very envious of your set up. My dream speaker is the 101E.

The 116's have alot to offer and are designed for small to medium size rooms. Response down into the lower 30's, a small footprint and a large, open, dimensional, focused sound. FYI, I listen with cages off.

By the way, I wanted to point out that I have a smallish room and listen nearfield (about 8' from me to the speakers) and they do quite well even listening far off axis.

Unfortunate about gregadd. That was a really good thread that was closed. Seems he had a run in with the Martin Logan Owners website administrator a couple of years ago and no longer posts there. Oh well. I wish him the best. We all have opinions given the subjectivity of this hobby but .................

Question for you and the 101's. What did you end up with toe in and what criteria did you use to evaluate? Given the omni pods, I was very surprised how sensitive the 116's are in this respect.

Best,

Gordon

PS: If I were to return to a conventional box speaker, the one brand that I really like is YG Acoustics.
 
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fas42

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Jan 8, 2011
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The problem of course is that the MBLs are an open window to the sound, so every deficiency earlier in the chain is beautifully exposed. So some people may hear things that are not too pleasant, and blame the messenger. Myself, that is exactly what's needed, such a speaker is an ideal measuring device as far as the ear/brain is concerned.

Frank
 

DEV

New Member
Oct 19, 2011
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I agree Frank.

Hi Gordon, looking at your speakers with the woofers on the sides really are a different design so I'm sure that plays in set-up also but I still do hear a difference in relation to toe in on mine. I believe it's partially due to the posts for the mid driver. I actually have numerous listening areas and enjoy all.

You can go to this posting and see my journey and set-up. :D

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?5895-My-VAC-journey
 

thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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Bye bye 116's?

Although I really do love what this speaker does well, I have never been able to get the mid / low bass to work in my room. And frankly I'm tired of trying after some three years and change. Likely the fact that I could not bi-wire or bi-amp.

So I will be taking delivery of a used pair of YG Acoustics Kipod II Signatures w/ active woofer this Thursday. Much easier on my amp and the active woofer gives me alot of flexibility to address mid / low bass room issues.

A new and better direction? We shall see.

GG
 

thedudeabides

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Jan 16, 2011
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The YG experiment crashed and burned.

Turned out that it was a harder load for my amp to generate and equivalent volume level and the way the two speakers energize the room is entirely different. I guess I should have known that.

Have done some work to resolve the mid / low bass issues with some positive results.

Suffice to say, I still have my 116's and am very happy.

GG
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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The YG experiment crashed and burned.

Turned out that it was a harder load for my amp to generate and equivalent volume level and the way the two speakers energize the room is entirely different. I guess I should have known that.

Have done some work to resolve the mid / low bass issues with some positive results.

Suffice to say, I still have my 116's and am very happy.

GG

Dude, welcome back to the MBL "family". (Not that there is anything wrong to leave the family!) Can you please say a bit more specifically about what worked and what has not worked with YG's? Interestingly, with all the due caveats, I have even heard tube amps drive YG's musically well. I also wonder whether being used to a big, open, transparent sound and then moving to a box speaker had anything to do with the results.

Good Luck in your journey!
 

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