Zero Distortion: More on restored Thorens 124

PeterA · Nov 11, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
I’ve heard a fair number of idler rebuilds, and I have a tt based on the Lenco L75, albeit a ground-up new design.
It really has spoken to me in getting to the heart of music, the gestalt, more than a handful of belt drives I auditioned at the time (incl TW AC-3), but I remain acutely aware of it’s limitations in terms of higher noise floor.
Certainly I’m sure it would fail the noise test versus Bill’s new 30/2.
Where I’m hoping to eek out as much performance and lower noise floor is in the mods I’m doing ahead of it being reinstalled, namely overspecced psus to the analog-only non-servo motor speed controller and Straingauge energiser, allowing me to finally dispense with stock captive power cords and go Sablon Reservas and SR Blue fuses, better vibration dispersal from the rim drive motor pod via a Gelmec pad to replace the stock Sorbothane, and an Al arm mount to improve stability of my Terminator air arm, it’s air supply getting its own 3kVA balanced power transformer.
The whole lot will go on the Stacore Advanced isolation platform.
What I’m hoping to achieve is a reasonable synergy of idler-type character, with a modern day ground-up new design including slate plinth, 14” oversized 9kg platter, magnetic bearing and feet, that will hopefully not be a million miles from belt drive type delicacy and quiet.
Once I get things optimal here, I’ll hope to get that experience of the 30/2 at Bill’s, and I’ll know inherently at that point how great the margin of superiority is with superbly engineered belt drive.
I think Ked needs to realise any comparison of refurbed 124 to 30/2 may be favourable in terms of verve and timing, tonal density even, but there’ll be no contest on deep microdynamics, delicacy, texture, fine detail.
No way is a 124, modded or not, going to keep pace with the 30/2 in terms of quietness, Bill tells me the 30/2 measures marginally better even than the AF1!
The only idler that’s in with a chance of squaring up to a superlative belt like Bill’s and Peter’s SMEs is the brand new design Audiosilente Blackstone.
Simone the designer revealed to me even modded 124s are very noisy (duh!), and he’s fastidiously engineered the Blackstone to be as quiet as a great belt drive, no noise st all to be heard when stethoscope used.
This is the competition for the SME, not the modded 124.

This is true according to the measurements made by of the British magazines, I think HiFi Plus or News. Rumble, wow and flutter are extremely low and as good or better than the TechDAS.

EDIT: Finished reading the thread and realized that Bill already made mention of HiFi News. Thanks Bill.

Audiophile Bill · Nov 12, 2017

PeterA said:
This is true according to the measurements made by of the British magazines, I think HiFi Plus or News. Rumble, wow and flutter are extremely low and as good or better than the TechDAS.

EDIT: Finished reading the thread and realized that Bill already made mention of HiFi News. Thanks Bill.

Hi Peter,

The measurements above I quoted are for your 30/12 but miraculously they are right up there with even 20/3. You still get total 0.03% w&f, and through bearing rumble -75.4.

But I noticed a measurement there today “hum and noise” where the SMEs kill the AF1 performing over 10db better. -65.2db on an SME20/3 vs -55db on AF1.

Anyway - I digress from the idler thread. Apologies for that.

Cheers

bonzo75 · Nov 12, 2017

Audiophile Bill said:
Hi Peter,

The measurements above I quoted are for your 30/12 but miraculously they are right up there with even 20/3. You still get total 0.03% w&f, and through bearing rumble -75.4.

But I noticed a measurement there today “hum and noise” where the SMEs kill the AF1 performing over 10db better. -65.2db on an SME20/3 vs -55db on AF1.

Anyway - I digress from the idler thread. Apologies for that.

Cheers

If I remember correctly you preferred the Nottingham dais to the 20/3 despite hearing a lower noise floor with the latter in a direct compare?

spiritofmusic · Nov 12, 2017

Ked, I think you’ll find that Bill would like many idler rebuilds, for all the reasons we both like them.
But there’s no comparison between a Dais and a 30/2 just as there is no comparison between a refurbed 124 and a 30/2.
So, while the Dais and the 124 likely share common traits in terms of warmth, the 30/2 is going to be class leading where it’s fastiduous approach to engineering helps it win out ie calm, quiet, low level detail, decay, shimmer etc.
I’ve heard Nottingham Analogue NA tts back in the day, and they were fantastically involving, warm and textured.
Before I got my rim drive tt, I nearly bought the Palmer 2.5 tt that is closely related to the NA. But I wouldn’t call NA or Palmer detailed, neutral and authoritative, where SMEs definitely are.
And this is what is floating Bill’s boat at the moment, especially his 30/2’s ability for music to emerge from a perfectly inky black background.
Idlers are great at many things, but this isn’t one of them.

bonzo75 · Nov 12, 2017

Hi I was talking about him preferring Dais over 20/3 not 30 despite hearing a lower noise floor with the 20 compared to the dais

spiritofmusic · Nov 12, 2017

By all accounts the 30 series is seriously overperforming compared to the 20

bonzo75 · Nov 12, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
By all accounts the 30 series is seriously overperforming compared to the 20

Again, that's not my point at all. It is just that lower noise floor and measurement might not be the only thing, since it was stated that 20/3 measurements are excellent

spiritofmusic · Nov 12, 2017

And you haven’t got my point either, that what Bill likes and we like coincide in lots of ways.
I have no doubt he’d really admire the 124 in many ways, as he likes the 301.
But the 30/2 is on a different level when it comes to what it does well, and the 124 or Dais don’t come close.
Obviously the 30 is seriously better than the 20.
And you also add to my point, in that idlers are SO compelling at what they do well, that it requires serious investment in absolute top tier belt drive to leapfrog them.
So for my part, if I really want to consider belt as an alternative to my idler-based rim drive, I won’t even bother looking at anything below SME 30, Brinkmann Balance, TW Black Knight, Kronos.
With Blackstone idler as outlier.

Audiophile Bill · Nov 12, 2017

bonzo75 said:
If I remember correctly you preferred the Nottingham dais to the 20/3 despite hearing a lower noise floor with the latter in a direct compare?

No. I heard the one below Dais and I loved it. Was it as good as the 20/3 - no. Was it great value - yes truly. The owner of Audio Consultants also felt the NA was a steal - I agree. Very different sound to SME btw.

Zero000 · Nov 12, 2017

I'd just ditch the idea that analogue is a satisfactory medium and save a lot of money! Sorry, couldn't resist! (LOL).

You're all just suckered by the fact that on about 15% of material analogue can sound amazing.

This site needs some better emoticons.

Audiophile Bill · Nov 12, 2017

User211 said:
I'd just ditch the idea that analogue is a satisfactory medium and save a lot of money! Sorry, couldn't resist! (LOL).

You're all just suckered by the fact that on about 15% of material analogue can sound amazing.

This site needs some better emoticons.

Ha

microstrip · Nov 12, 2017

spiritofmusic said:
And you haven’t got my point either, that what Bill likes and we like coincide in lots of ways.
I have no doubt he’d really admire the 124 in many ways, as he likes the 301.
But the 30/2 is on a different level when it comes to what it does well, and the 124 or Dais don’t come close.
Obviously the 30 is seriously better than the 20. (...)

Although I agree with your general statement we should remember that the SME20/12 is also worth considering - some people preferred it to the 30/2 , but not to the 30/12.

Argonaut · Nov 12, 2017

Purely from an aesthetical point of view does anyone else find the SME's somewhat challenged, bordering on the Butt Ugly

PeterA · Nov 12, 2017

Harlequin said:
Purely from an aesthetical point of view does anyone else find the SME's somewhat challenged, bordering on the Butt Ugly

Interesting comment. I think the SME approach is purely functional. It is an example of form follows function. It is all purpose and nothing extra. It is a machine aesthetic and not for everyone. I don't mind the looks, but there are better looking TTs out there in my opinion. Regardless, I care more about the sound, and I can't see gear in the dark when listening at night anyway.

The new owners have made a few examples in red. I don't know how they were received.

Zero000 · Nov 12, 2017

Harlequin said:
Purely from an aesthetical point of view does anyone else find the SME's somewhat challenged, bordering on the Butt Ugly

In the flesh they don't look expensive and the 'rubber band' suspension mech looks somewhat inappropriate somehow. But it obviously works well.

I've seen quite a few at shows but I have never heard one play at one. Why is that I wonder?

That said I don't find them that bad to look at and rather the understated approach that some of the outrageous TT bling that is out there. Only a few TTs get away with high bling factor IMHO.

microstrip · Nov 12, 2017

Harlequin said:
Purely from an aesthetical point of view does anyone else find the SME's somewhat challenged, bordering on the Butt Ugly

It is discrete enough to pass unnoticed in many systems - unless you fit it with the gold plated tonearm ...
Although I love seeing bling designs in shops and other people systems, in my room I preferred it aesthetically to most others. Besides me, who would also prefer the AS2000 in black?

Argonaut · Nov 12, 2017

Oh I quite agree with your considerations regarding engineering and resultant sound reproduction Alan and micro.

It's just that I cannot quite loose the initial impression of a hybrid between a highly engineered turntable and a scale model of an Oil Rig Heli Pad

PeterA · Nov 12, 2017

microstrip said:
It is discrete enough to pass unnoticed in many systems - unless you fit it with the gold plated tonearm ...
Although I love seeing bling designs in shops and other people systems, in my room I preferred it aesthetically to most others. Besides me, who would also prefer the AS2000 in black?

I like the machined and raw look of the AS2000, but I would also like it in a satin black and smooth anodized finish. Any arm with silver parts would then be striking. Such a finish though would add to the cost, I'm sure. Black would also show up any dust more than the current finish. It will be fascinating to see photos of these few AS2000s in their system settings.

bonzo75 · Nov 12, 2017

Aesthetically nothing to beat Garrard imo. In fact the delta between the 124 and 401 I texted Bill that I thought I can live with the 401 more easily since it is like furniture and sound is good anyway.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 12, 2017

microstrip said:
It is discrete enough to pass unnoticed in many systems - unless you fit it with the gold plated tonearm ...
Although I love seeing bling designs in shops and other people systems, in my room I preferred it aesthetically to most others. Besides me, who would also prefer the AS2000 in black?

ddk offered all of us black as a choice for the AS2000, and I certainly preferred the machined finish myself. he had done a ton of investigations to find out how he could effectively powder coat it black. he was surprised no one chose it.

I owned the Rockport Sirius III, which was the most Darth Vader 'black' product......ever. so I've done that......and I now prefer the machined 'industrial' look I saw in ddk's room. I also think that the mass of 450 pounds of machined platter and plinth radiates this sense of awe and majesty. 'black' would actually take away from the visual impact and the viewer would not realize what he is looking at.

so aesthetics is more than beauty; it's also part of the equation of purpose. what should this thing do? what does it say?

I see pictures of particular tt's and I have to say I agree with Ked that the Garrard completely captures one 'vibe' perfectly; and the 124 is maybe a close second with that. there are other visual approaches. I find the Saskia II particularly beautiful.

and the super 'bling-bling' looking tt's are not my visual cup of tea......even though on some levels they are pretty. I tend more toward elegant (Studer A-820/Nagra T), or industrial (Ampex ATR-102).

of course; I have a dedicated room where WAF is not an issue, and no one is going to casually see it.

Zero Distortion: More on restored Thorens 124

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