Zero Distortion: More on restored Thorens 124

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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Quoted from the link above:

"(...) and it’s a very nice match to my Westminster Royal SE and vintage McIntosh based main music system."

I think that this just shows how careful we must be when addressing these vintage turntable. The opinions mostly refer how well they complement the systems (and the recordings being played).

Jeff's Westminster and McIntosh system is extensively modified. So, again, when it comes to restorations/modifications, all bets are off.

Best,

853guy
 

bonzo75

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Quoted from the link above:

"(...) and it’s a very nice match to my Westminster Royal SE and vintage McIntosh based main music system."

I think that this just shows how careful we must be when addressing these vintage turntable. The opinions mostly refer how well they complement the systems (and the recordings being played).

Complementing is required for all systems, nothing to do with restored vintages. Unfortunately some decide to get in a vintage collection into their bedroom system but that means nothing. They will beat out some modern, some not, in all systems. More to do with price point
 

Audiophile Bill

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Just read through all the posts and here’s my opinion fwiw.

Restored idlers are a totally heterogeneous bag and as other ms have said it is not actually a good idea to conclude that say 301 is better than 125 or vice versa - far too many parameters to be make any valid conclusions. The fact that opinion even here differs significantly on this matter exemplifies this situation.

In terms of comparisons to other current high end belt drive drives such as SME. Personally I think it is relatively silly to think one can compare say a diy idler restore project to a precision tool (SME) which measures better than anything ever tested in the entire hifi news database including AF1. Now I am not declaring that one must buy a TT based on how precisely if functions in absolute speed stability, wow and flutter and rumble but these parameters are actually very audible and distinguish a high fidelity (in the real sense for say archival) product versus one that sounds good. The latter can still be pleasurable but it is all subjective.

There is no point going to someone’s room to make a declaration of a subjective winner when one has preconceived bias (and we all do based on our preferences). Similarly there is no point buying say a TT that measures tremendously if YOU don’t like that sound.

Now no grievance with diy type small scale outfits restoring idlers of yesteryear but they are mostly plagued by high noise and significant coloration that people enjoy - this is fine just not high fidelity in proper sense.

Anyway - just a opinion. Enjoy your TTs.
 

bonzo75

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How would a person have a bias if he hasn't heard or read about that TT before?
 

PeterA

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Of course it is.
And yes, I do muse a lot.
The hobby is audiowankery in lots of ways.
But you’ll struggle to convince anyone here that as an avowed fan of vinyl you don’t want to listen to the BlackStuff everyday.
With my tt down, I’ve had to patch in my old tt, or listen to vinyl in a system close by.
I can’t go thru a day wout vinyl.
But my situation is not of choice, whereas you’re choosing to delay choice of an analog front end by a factor of several years.
What so-called fan of lp does this? You may be the only one. Aren’t you feeling a bit lonely aspiring to being an authority on compares and data points while not indulging in the hobby day to day as the rest of us do?

Sadly for him, I think Ron is suffering through his long renovation and missing his analog. Sometimes one does what is necessary for anticipated improvement down the road. You have waited for quite some time to get you analog upgraded and back into your system. Will you listen to it for a while without the Stacore advanced to better understand what the addition of the isolation brings to the sound?
 

Audiophile Bill

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Is this to me Ked? If it is I am not sure you understand what I have written.
 

PeterA

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No, not at all. You just can't be an authority on vinyl without spending ten years with various gear.

Do you see me posting about apogee or my chosen horns much, where I do feel like I know more?

I am just looking to learn on analog and have a shortlist. Maybe you feel like an authority on isolation and that's your thing. The thing that I am first to accept is how little I know of analog (Same is the case with many owners too)

My hobby is different from yours. It's sampling, which is a cheaper, and imo, more efficient method of swapping.

I indulge in live shows much more for my music kicks rather than bulld a half arsed system in a compromised space at the moment and listen to music which only the system is capable of playing. If you are so interested in listening to vinyl you should buy or listen to something else apart from your transfi salvation Marc.

Ked, you have outlined your goals before and acknowledge that your hobby is different from many here who are doing something else. I respect your approach and methods because you adhere to them and seem to have the confidence to know that this is right for you. Knowing thy self is very important in this hobby, as is knowing exactly what hobby one is pursuing. You offer the readers something different to read. Keep it up until you settle down with your own system.
 

bonzo75

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Is this to me Ked? If it is I am not sure you understand what I have written.

I am talking about how I discovered schopper. When I had just bought the big 7, I was not sure if it was a good deal and if I should have held out for other well known digital, including esoteric K01, where you can play both SACD and stream. On paper, better deal. So I went to Clive to compare. Then I was not into analog but noted he had the Shindo Garrard.

Couple of years or more later, I was investigating analog and contacted him to listen to the Garrard. He had then shifted over to the Audiograil which he said was nearly as good at less price.

So I went. And the 124 next to it was so much better. And then he told me about the schopper. So how does one go to a room to confirm a bias If one doesn't have one? Purely accident this was

Anyway schopper is third generation and been around longer than most commercial manufacturers. As you know SME has changed hands and we won't know what's coming. Look up maintenance reports on big name amps and speakers (which both of us are aware of), so dismissing DIY is unfair. Hifi is an uncertain industry, anyone could blow up.

Schopper bought thorens parts after they went bust.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Ked I’m afraid what you have written still makes no sense at all in response to what I wrote.

No idea what you you insinuate with the SME jibe.

What has maintenance reports on big name amps got anything to do with this discussion? It has no relevance at all.

Anyway - don’t want to continue this discussion here as pointless.
 

PeterA

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Or idler-like "speed-irregularities and motor noise" versus belt related " consistent drive and motor-noise freedom" ... :)

IMHO there are too many differences in the implementation to allow such generalizations.

BTW, SME 30's are not over engineered - I would say they are carefully optimized for performance, long term operation and user convenience.

Excellent summary, Micro. There was speculation that SME was flirting with a two-arm "super" table on its own stand a few years ago. I don't know what happened to that idea. I agree that they are not over engineered. Nor is the American Sound, from the looks of it. The hyperbolic marketing/tag line for the SME V arm aside, I'd say that SME produces "well engineered" products. Just enough, but not any more, to fulfill the design goal. With SME's new owner, those goals may change. Time will tell.
 

bonzo75

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Ked I’m afraid what you have written still makes no sense at all in response to what I wrote.

No idea what you you insinuate with the SME jibe.

What has maintenance reports on big name amps got anything to do with this discussion? It has no relevance at all.

Anyway - don’t want to continue this discussion here as pointless.

It is not a jibe. It is to say dismissing DIY for big name is not fair as big names can change or close down or have poor quality issues too
 

gilles13

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Dec 17, 2015
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Just read through all the posts and here’s my opinion fwiw.

Restored idlers are a totally heterogeneous bag and as other ms have said it is not actually a good idea to conclude that say 301 is better than 125 or vice versa - far too many parameters to be make any valid conclusions. The fact that opinion even here differs significantly on this matter exemplifies this situation.

In terms of comparisons to other current high end belt drive drives such as SME. Personally I think it is relatively silly to think one can compare say a diy idler restore project to a precision tool (SME) which measures better than anything ever tested in the entire hifi news database including AF1. Now I am not declaring that one must buy a TT based on how precisely if functions in absolute speed stability, wow and flutter and rumble but these parameters are actually very audible and distinguish a high fidelity (in the real sense for say archival) product versus one that sounds good. The latter can still be pleasurable but it is all subjective.

There is no point going to someone’s room to make a declaration of a subjective winner when one has preconceived bias (and we all do based on our preferences). Similarly there is no point buying say a TT that measures tremendously if YOU don’t like that sound.

Now no grievance with diy type small scale outfits restoring idlers of yesteryear but they are mostly plagued by high noise and significant coloration that people enjoy - this is fine just not high fidelity in proper sense.

Anyway - just a opinion. Enjoy your TTs.

A Salvatore has changed his air tangent turntable for a lenco reference from J Nantais and he writes that he heard no noise from the lenco. He was surprised.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Ked - please please please re-read what I wrote. I am not dismissing the DIY projects at all and if you like them - good for you.

I have not mentioned quality issues either but fwiw SME are known for extreme build quality and outliving their owners. My installer said he met one of his original owners of a 20 a couple of weeks ago and replaced the O ring after 20 years.

What I am absolutely saying relates to the tehnical performance of these DIY creations - please see my post.
 

bonzo75

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Ked - please please please re-read what I wrote. I am not dismissing the DIY projects at all and if you like them - good for you.

I have not mentioned quality issues either but fwiw SME are known for extreme build quality and outliving their owners. My installer said he met one of his original owners of a 20 a couple of weeks ago and replaced the O ring after 20 years.

What I am absolutely saying relates to the tehnical performance of these DIY creations - please see my post.

Ok understand.
 

spiritofmusic

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Peter, I’ve had a bit of a comedy of errors with my analog.
It was in the process of being setup with what seems in retrospect a faulty Straingauge leading to the substandard sound I was reporting.
Then faulted as the Stacore was en route.
So I’ve decided to get the cart properly sorted, and now it’s at Soundsmith’s top spec, added a couple of bespoke psus, and what promises to be a very special custom Al arm mount from NZ.
The psus are just awaiting fitting of Furutech IECs in Dec and we’ll be good to go, yes on the Stacore Adv.
Bill’s stellar early experience of his new 30/2 will provide a fascinating comparison if he gets the time to invite me over.
 
Last edited:

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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Just read through all the posts and here’s my opinion fwiw.

Restored idlers are a totally heterogeneous bag and as other ms have said it is not actually a good idea to conclude that say 301 is better than 125 or vice versa - far too many parameters to be make any valid conclusions. The fact that opinion even here differs significantly on this matter exemplifies this situation.

In terms of comparisons to other current high end belt drive drives such as SME. Personally I think it is relatively silly to think one can compare say a diy idler restore project to a precision tool (SME) which measures better than anything ever tested in the entire hifi news database including AF1. Now I am not declaring that one must buy a TT based on how precisely if functions in absolute speed stability, wow and flutter and rumble but these parameters are actually very audible and distinguish a high fidelity (in the real sense for say archival) product versus one that sounds good. The latter can still be pleasurable but it is all subjective.

There is no point going to someone’s room to make a declaration of a subjective winner when one has preconceived bias (and we all do based on our preferences). Similarly there is no point buying say a TT that measures tremendously if YOU don’t like that sound.

Now no grievance with diy type small scale outfits restoring idlers of yesteryear but they are mostly plagued by high noise and significant coloration that people enjoy - this is fine just not high fidelity in proper sense.

Anyway - just a opinion. Enjoy your TTs.

Not all restorations are bad and there's a difference between restored & modified. For the most part the 301, 401, 124 are very solid designs and need very little besides maintenance to get them up & running properly in this case it's not difficult to arrive at conclusions. The mods are a different story some are little more than donor chassis. I wouldn't call them all diy projects there are some serious hobbyists & very professional companies actively building high end plinths for these tables, you should also remember that these three were high end designs and near SOTA of the day so comparing them to anything and everything shouldn't be a problem; done right they hold their own. In fact in 2017 CES I had a 401 as the source for $650k Lamm+Kharma system which got a number of rave reviews. No one enjoys high noise & significant coloration :)!

david
 

Audiophile Bill

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Hi,
I don’t doubt that Mr Salvatore enjoys his Lenco and perhaps this version is quieter - dunno without seeing independently measured data. That said I am fairly certain this design will not be anywhere near state of the art now though in terms of through bearing rumble. Again not saying it doesn’t make great music.

As another data point to show how we vary - In the present context Mr Salvatore also happens to declare the Kuzma XL as A class too - the author of this this thread (Kedar) happens to very much dislike the Kuzma XL.
 

spiritofmusic

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I’ve heard a fair number of idler rebuilds, and I have a tt based on the Lenco L75, albeit a ground-up new design.
It really has spoken to me in getting to the heart of music, the gestalt, more than a handful of belt drives I auditioned at the time (incl TW AC-3), but I remain acutely aware of it’s limitations in terms of higher noise floor.
Certainly I’m sure it would fail the noise test versus Bill’s new 30/2.
Where I’m hoping to eek out as much performance and lower noise floor is in the mods I’m doing ahead of it being reinstalled, namely overspecced psus to the analog-only non-servo motor speed controller and Straingauge energiser, allowing me to finally dispense with stock captive power cords and go Sablon Reservas and SR Blue fuses, better vibration dispersal from the rim drive motor pod via a Gelmec pad to replace the stock Sorbothane, and an Al arm mount to improve stability of my Terminator air arm, it’s air supply getting its own 3kVA balanced power transformer.
The whole lot will go on the Stacore Advanced isolation platform.
What I’m hoping to achieve is a reasonable synergy of idler-type character, with a modern day ground-up new design including slate plinth, 14” oversized 9kg platter, magnetic bearing and feet, that will hopefully not be a million miles from belt drive type delicacy and quiet.
Once I get things optimal here, I’ll hope to get that experience of the 30/2 at Bill’s, and I’ll know inherently at that point how great the margin of superiority is with superbly engineered belt drive.
I think Ked needs to realise any comparison of refurbed 124 to 30/2 may be favourable in terms of verve and timing, tonal density even, but there’ll be no contest on deep microdynamics, delicacy, texture, fine detail.
No way is a 124, modded or not, going to keep pace with the 30/2 in terms of quietness, Bill tells me the 30/2 measures marginally better even than the AF1!
The only idler that’s in with a chance of squaring up to a superlative belt like Bill’s and Peter’s SMEs is the brand new design Audiosilente Blackstone.
Simone the designer revealed to me even modded 124s are very noisy (duh!), and he’s fastidiously engineered the Blackstone to be as quiet as a great belt drive, no noise st all to be heard when stethoscope used.
This is the competition for the SME, not the modded 124.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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Hi David,

I don’t disagree that these modded / restored idlers were state of the art in the day. They don’t compare in measurement terms to state of the art now though in the usually measured parameters such as w&f, absolute speed accuracy, rumble (various measurements). Again not saying they don’t sound nice - this is a different question. An earlier point was made about them all sounding different pending plinth choice says a lot about their fidelity to source.

“No one likes high noise and significant coloration” - I just don’t personally subscribe to this view as evidenced by the love by some for SET amps with poor SNR and high levels of distortion with massive output impedance into certain speakers - not saying all are like this before the onslaught but there are many such examples out there.
 

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