Amps for Ron to consider

Ron Resnick · Nov 7, 2017

Leif S said:
Vac 450 IQ Statements You wont have to worry about the ribbons

Thank you, Leif. But they are Class A push-pull or Class AB push-pull?

(If Class AB push-pull then I would stay with the VTLs.)

Mike Lavigne · Nov 7, 2017

let's see. looks like these are your check lists;

List A; non-negotiables.

tubes, class A, 150+ watts, smooth and edge free and a bit forgiving, a 'sound' you love.

List B; integration.

linear enough in the upper and mid bass under duress to integrate perfectly with the active solid state powered bass towers,

List C; intangibles.

enough authority for great 1st watt on Gryphon panels, current state of art refinement, lively, low noise, ultra detail.

----a few good to great List A choices, but List A with B get's tougher, then with A + B + all of C get's even tougher.

have fun Ron.

bonzo75 · Nov 8, 2017

LL21 said:
I too am curious to know what Flemming thinks.

Ron FWIW, the only other super-experienced audiophile i know who might have some insight here on this is 'Mihalis' by his moniker on AGon. He owned the earlier 4-tower reference Gryphon speakers (Poseiden) for many years, and ran the main towers with Gryphon Colossseum monos (again, self-powered tower subs) but he also quite often drove the main towers with Wavac 833 Mk II monos.

Did he not own the Marten 4 tower? Yes his Vitus preference was quite clear, and Danon drives his Gryphon with Vitus too.

morricab · Nov 8, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
This is very kind and thoughtful of you, Brad. I appreciate it!

But if we eliminate Class AB operation and anything with transistors and specify at least 100 watts I think that leaves CAT JL7 and Statements -- two excellent candidates! (I would prefer the JL7 over the 6650-tubed Statement.)

The KR DXLs are Class A pushpull triode with no feedback and 140 watts. No OTL on the planet is true Class A. The Statements were Class AB I thought...not sure. The older VAC 140/140 was Class A though.

morricab · Nov 8, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Flemming was not disconcerted when I told him I would be driving the ribbon panels with VTL MB-750s. I think this may be partly because he has some respect for big VTLs due to the fact that Andy Payor used VTL Siegfrieds for some period of time before he switched to Gryphon Audio amplifiers.

We did not discuss specific tube amp parameters, but I think that Flemming would not bless low or medium power anything, tubes or otherwise. I am also pretty sure Flemming would not bless any SET, if for no other reason than the generally poor distortion measurements of that amplifier topology.

I would not consider for purchase for myself anything below about 150 watts.

To estimate or triangulate on the driver demand of the Pendragon ribbon panel think Genesis rather than Apogee.

The other factor is that I think I'm not particularly sensitive to the kind of lack of integration you are referring to. I am more interested in getting my musical and natural midrange.

Hi Ron,
Just a general question about your listening habits: Do you listen really loud? Have you measured peak levels in your room by any chance to know what kind of power requirements you have for a system? Remember also that this speaker is a line source and the drop off in SPL with distance will be much less than you would have with a point source of the same sensitivity. Your 89db line soure will behave more like a 92db point source. I am asking because I suspect that you won't need 99.9% of the time more than 100 watts and 95% of the time not more than about 10 watts...unless you listen really loud.

Aries Cerat · Nov 8, 2017

morricab said:
The KR DXLs are Class A pushpull triode with no feedback and 140 watts. No OTL on the planet is true Class A. The Statements were Class AB I thought...not sure. The older VAC 140/140 was Class A though.

Unless it is SE OTL

microstrip · Nov 8, 2017

In order to debate class A we must know the impedance curve of the loudspeaker. Class A is limited by the current needs of the loudspeaker.

microstrip · Nov 8, 2017

morricab said:
(...) No OTL on the planet is true Class A. (...)

I am not sure - perhaps some of the first Philips OTLs using a 800 ohm speaker still exist!

Ron Resnick · Nov 8, 2017

morricab said:
The KR DXLs are Class A pushpull triode with no feedback and 140 watts. No OTL on the planet is true Class A. The Statements were Class AB I thought...not sure. The older VAC 140/140 was Class A though.

Dear Brad,

Does not the KR VA200 have a transistor input stage?

I think the Joule Electras are Class A OTL.

Thank you, again!

Ron Resnick · Nov 8, 2017

morricab said:
Hi Ron,
Just a general question about your listening habits: Do you listen really loud? Have you measured peak levels in your room by any chance to know what kind of power requirements you have for a system? Remember also that this speaker is a line source and the drop off in SPL with distance will be much less than you would have with a point source of the same sensitivity. Your 89db line soure will behave more like a 92db point source. I am asking because I suspect that you won't need 99.9% of the time more than 100 watts and 95% of the time not more than about 10 watts...unless you listen really loud.

Dear Brad, it is not about need. It is about headroom for musical ease and absence of compression or hardening. See MikeL posts to this effect. (I have the same view on this.)

bonzo75 · Nov 8, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Dear Brad, it is not about need. It is about headroom for musical ease and absence of compression or hardening. See MikeL posts to this effect. (I have the same view on this.)

So do I. In fact Berning distributor recommends 200w quadrature over the 30w for horns. Avant-garde uses 150w amps to run their trios. Henk puts in 2 kw. Though for horns I am ok with less

microstrip · Nov 8, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
(...) I think the Joule Electras are Class A OTL. (...)

Surely not with your panels! There is limit for the bias current of the 4x 6C33 per polarity - probably something around 1-2 amps .

Aries Cerat · Nov 8, 2017

microstrip said:
In order to debate class A we must know the impedance curve of the loudspeaker. Class A is limited by the current needs of the loudspeaker.

Correct,with the exception of Single Ended circuits,which are running ,and cannot leave class A

853guy · Nov 8, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Dear Brad, it is not about need. It is about headroom for musical ease and absence of compression or hardening. See MikeL posts to this effect. (I have the same view on this.)

Bonzo75 said:
So do I. In fact Berning distributor recommends 200w quadrature over the 30w for horns. Avant-garde uses 150w amps to run their trios. Henk puts in 2 kw. Though for horns I am ok with less

Hello Ron, Bonzo...

Headroom and musical ease are not synonymous concepts. I’ve heard a lot of high-headroom amp/speaker combinations that nevertheless feel rigid, restrictive, inert and as if the notes themselves are clinging to the surface of the driver. The latter was a noticeable feature of a number of rooms in Munich, despite the cubic area of the rooms. I won’t mention those specific cases, but nevertheless, personally believe musical ease has more to do with energy propagation and curation than headroom per se. That is, power supply matters more than sheer number of watts, even in cases in which the speaker has relatively low sensitivity/efficiency. Of course, that’s just my opinion and I appreciate perspectives may differ.

Best,

853guy

bonzo75 · Nov 8, 2017

853guy said:
Hello Ron, Bonzo...

Headroom and musical ease are not synonymous concepts. I’ve heard a lot of high-headroom amp/speaker combinations that nevertheless feel rigid, restrictive, inert and as if the notes themselves are clinging to the surface of the driver. The latter was a noticeable feature of a number of rooms in Munich, despite the cubic area of the rooms. I won’t mention those specific cases, but nevertheless, personally believe musical ease has more to do with energy propagation and curation than headroom per se. That is, power supply matters more than sheer number of watts, even in cases in which the speaker has relatively low sensitivity/efficiency. Of course, that’s just my opinion and I appreciate perspectives may differ.

Best,

853guy

Not saying more power will always result in more ease

We want both, quality watts with power. Like Mike has.

Ron Resnick · Nov 8, 2017

How does the KR Kronzilla DX sound compared to Jadis JA200 Mk. II?

Tango · Nov 8, 2017

Some speakers are just married better with solid stage amp whether the manufacturer wants to say or not.

KeithR · Nov 8, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
How does the KR Kronzilla DX sound compared to Jadis JA200 Mk. II?

KR is going to be closer to the OTL in sonic signature that you don't prefer.

bonzo75 · Nov 8, 2017

KeithR said:
KR is going to be closer to the OTL in sonic signature that you don't prefer.

Btw, if this refers to the perceived thinness, then KR has great Midbass and fullness. And OTL are not thin either

KeithR · Nov 8, 2017

Mike Lavigne said:
let's see. looks like these are your check lists;

List A; non-negotiables.

tubes, class A, 150+ watts, smooth and edge free and a bit forgiving, a 'sound' you love.

List B; integration.

linear enough in the upper and mid bass under duress to integrate perfectly with the active solid state powered bass towers,

List C; intangibles.

enough authority for great 1st watt on Gryphon panels, current state of art refinement, lively, low noise, ultra detail.

----a few good to great List A choices, but List A with B get's tougher, then with A + B + all of C get's even tougher.

have fun Ron.

I think there are some valid points here - but will say that Gryphon's amp paired with Pendragon is the Mephisto which is 175 watts Class A. So I would imagine that P/P Class A tube probably works well.

Amps for Ron to consider

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