Who REALLY makes the cables - For "Fill in the Blank" Audiophile Brand?

Folsom

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Thanks Dave. I guess I was pinning too much blame on the cable makers when the real culprit is an inefficient distribution model that marks up the product too much by the time it makes it to the end user.

I don't know that inefficient is the word I would use. Convoluted is more like it to me. You're trying so hard to reach people and gain the upper edge in marketing... that includes all the fluff of trying to appear technically superior by ranting on about, well, nonsense or pseudo information. Part of that is having as many places to sell your product as possible so it's always seen. Some of them probably sell the same product as two different things to the same distributors. It is what it is... if you find things you enjoy you've won, no matter the background. But for those willing to put in due diligence there are manufacturers like ZenWave whom offer typically superior products for a song. The low faith in spending less is maybe the strangest part to me. There are some pretty good cables out there, but at this point if someone wanted a loom I'd just point them to ZenWave for win-wins.
 

Barry2013

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I was interested to read Dave of your use of cotton tubing for your cables because the ones I favour and use are Entreq which also use cotton tubing.
Another distinguishing feature of the Entreq cables are their zero use of plastic on the plugs and I was wondering what your thoughts were on that design choice.
 

cjf

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Nov 19, 2012
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I was interested to read Dave of your use of cotton tubing for your cables because the ones I favour and use are Entreq which also use cotton tubing.
Another distinguishing feature of the Entreq cables are their zero use of plastic on the plugs and I was wondering what your thoughts were on that design choice.

One similar note but related to a concern in the opposite direction, I've always been weary of cables that use conductive materials outside of the Spade or Banana itself. Mainly due to being concerned with interaction between the positive and negative output poles. Conductivity here in too close a proximity to each other due to larger than standard terminations can be problematic as well. Not enough air gap, in other words.

I tend to favor the brands that at least make some effort to shield the two poles from each other and not make it easier for such an interaction by using conductive materials too far past the termination point itself.
 

Empirical Audio

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One similar note but related to a concern in the opposite direction, I've always been weary of cables that use conductive materials outside of the Spade or Banana itself. Mainly due to being concerned with interaction between the positive and negative output poles. Conductivity here in too close a proximity to each other due to larger than standard terminations can be problematic as well. Not enough air gap, in other words.

I tend to favor the brands that at least make some effort to shield the two poles from each other and not make it easier for such an interaction by using conductive materials too far past the termination point itself.

The philosophy in the cables I used to sell was to avoid interrupting or confining E-fields. This is why I used plastic bullet-plugs and never metal ones. This is why I mostly sold unshielded interconnects. This is why the spacing (from each other) on my speaker cable twisted-pairs was made as large as practical. During my investigations and simulations of speaker cables I discovered that the more distance I put between pairs in the SAME cable, the better it sounded. This is also why I use plastic conduit and plastic boxes for dedicated AC power installations.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

DaveC

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I was interested to read Dave of your use of cotton tubing for your cables because the ones I favour and use are Entreq which also use cotton tubing.
Another distinguishing feature of the Entreq cables are their zero use of plastic on the plugs and I was wondering what your thoughts were on that design choice.

I think it's a case of theory not being nearly as important as implementation. There are examples of excellent sounding connectors that use a low-metal-mass theory and there are big, chunky connectors that sound great too. Like there are examples of good tube and SS amps, implementation is the most important thing.

There are a lot of things to watch out for imo... the largest imo is people that insist X is so important and you should never buy Y from someone who does or does not do X. This is almost always a fallacy and simply shows bias. You can dig up tons of conflicting information on cables, almost all of it is misguided ime as a superior implementation of whatever the person is ranting about usually exists. One example... plastic plugs are better. Well, except for the WBT 0102 Ag with a brass body that is better than any KLE or Eichmann plug ever made, and WBT makes a nearly identical plastic version that nobody is ever going to be able to differentiate blind. Or the new Furutech power cables that we had a discussion about recently... most power cables in that form factor suck, so people assume all sorts of things about it that the new Furutech cables prove are completely wrong.

I do have one pet peeve, and that's cables that degrade over time through poor design/construction or through corrosion. I've seen flat ribbons one atop the other terminated into XLR plugs. How many times can you bend the cable before something gives? Not many, and this was a $3000+ cable that was sent to me for retermination. A couple years or so after it was reterminated it developed an internal short somewhere. Then there's the air/cotton dielectric folks, hate to break it to them but copper and/or silver corrode over time, and while an air/cotton dielectric sounds very slightly better vs teflon the wires do corrode over time. I've been making cables for over 20 years and I have plenty of proof of this as I went through a period of making cables with wire in teflon or cotton tubing. Now I use cotton as a cover that damps mechanical vibration without degrading the sound, the wires under the cotton jacket are teflon insulated.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Dave, couple of questions...as I am now listening to a variety of power cords..and trying to figure out which ones are simpatico with my amps.
Do you think the gauge of the cable has anything to do with the sound...thicker is always better, or gauge needs to be just capable enough to support the draw and no more.
Is Silicone a good outer insulator? Seems like a few companies are going that way now. Does the connector plating play a part in the SQ...Gold vs. Silver, vs Rhodium...
Flexibility, how important? To me, this seems like an issue that is rarely considered, but I would think is pretty important.
BTW, I remember my first a’phile speaker cables... the Monster Cables...these were a thick copper cable with a clear insulator. After a while the copper oxidized and the whole cable looked ( and sounded) like s......t
 

DaveC

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Dave, couple of questions...as I am now listening to a variety of power cords..and trying to figure out which ones are simpatico with my amps.
Do you think the gauge of the cable has anything to do with the sound...thicker is always better, or gauge needs to be just capable enough to support the draw and no more.
Is Silicone a good outer insulator? Seems like a few companies are going that way now. Does the connector plating play a part in the SQ...Gold vs. Silver, vs Rhodium...
Flexibility, how important? To me, this seems like an issue that is rarely considered, but I would think is pretty important.
BTW, I remember my first a’phile speaker cables... the Monster Cables...these were a thick copper cable with a clear insulator. After a while the copper oxidized and the whole cable looked ( and sounded) like s......t

Amps usually like more gauge but it really depends on the amp... a small SET amp still likes a larger gauge cable but tbh PCs don't make as much difference with this type of amp while a big SS amp might respond very differently to different power cables. Most other components don't respond as much to wire gauge but some lower powered components still respond favorably to a larger gauge cable. It's one of those things you just need to try out if possible, but going with a larger/heavier gauge never hurts, except the wallet.

I've found good PC's sound converges to some degree, all of the 3 PCs I carry sound very similar despite different designs, you're paying for fairly subtle differences in the cable... the plugs otoh can make huge differences and the plating can really change the sound of the cable. I've settled on 2 plugs... Furutech NCF which is pricey but head and shoulders better than anything else and Furutech FI-28(R) which has the same "guts" as the NCF plugs without the fancy body and NCF material.

Flexibility is more for convenience and with the Furutech cables you might want some extra length because the cable won't bend and twist easily. My PL cables aren't shielded and are very easy to handle, it is much more convenient, you don't have to plan out the cable path like you do with the Furutechs.

Not sure on silicon vs pvc, neither are really ideal but machine made cables need these jackets. The fact the Furutech cables use heavy outer jackets but still sound really good means the effect might be a bit overstated by some.

I do have demo cables you're welcome to try... ;)
 

Folsom

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The philosophy in the cables I used to sell was to avoid interrupting or confining E-fields. This is why I used plastic bullet-plugs and never metal ones. This is why I mostly sold unshielded interconnects. This is why the spacing (from each other) on my speaker cable twisted-pairs was made as large as practical. During my investigations and simulations of speaker cables I discovered that the more distance I put between pairs in the SAME cable, the better it sounded. This is also why I use plastic conduit and plastic boxes for dedicated AC power installations.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Ok but the farther away the fields are from each other in a speaker cable, the bigger they get... meaning they can infect other cables more easily in their proximity (or electronics).
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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I do have one pet peeve, and that's cables that degrade over time through poor design/construction or through corrosion. I've seen flat ribbons one atop the other terminated into XLR plugs. How many times can you bend the cable before something gives? Not many, and this was a $3000+ cable that was sent to me for retermination. A couple years or so after it was reterminated it developed an internal short somewhere. Then there's the air/cotton dielectric folks, hate to break it to them but copper and/or silver corrode over time, and while an air/cotton dielectric sounds very slightly better vs teflon the wires do corrode over time. I've been making cables for over 20 years and I have plenty of proof of this as I went through a period of making cables with wire in teflon or cotton tubing. Now I use cotton as a cover that damps mechanical vibration without degrading the sound, the wires under the cotton jacket are teflon insulated.

Corrosion is definitely an issue. This is why I hermetically sealed my interconnects and put silver oxidation inhibitor in there. It's a more serious problem for copper. Copper is fine, as long as its silver-plated or tin-plated. Stranded copper is the worst IMO. Never touch the stuff.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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Ok but the farther away the fields are from each other in a speaker cable, the bigger they get... meaning they can infect other cables more easily in their proximity (or electronics).

Not a valid concern IMO. This happens within 1" of the cable. Fields fall off exponentially. People have this concept that fields are being picked-up by everything. Simply not the case. RF fields can be picked up by loop antennas, like ground loops however.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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Corrosion is definitely an issue. This is why I hermetically sealed my interconnects and put silver oxidation inhibitor in there. It's a more serious problem for copper. Copper is fine, as long as its silver-plated or tin-plated. Stranded copper is the worst IMO. Never touch the stuff.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

I used to own an auto/welding shop and have seen plenty of corroded wires in autos, all stranded copper, the corrosion starts at an end and works it's way down the wire. Some say corrosion doesn't matter when talking about audio cables but I've seen many wires simply stop working and not just battery wires... power window/door wires, fuel pump wires, all sorts of wires just stop working after a while when they corrode.

I did build one cable with wire in teflon tube, then flushed the tube with nitrogen gas and sealed the ends. It is slightly better vs teflon insulation that conforms to the wire, but labor is a PITA and the ends of teflon tube require some not-generally-available adhesives to properly seal.
 

microstrip

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Corrosion is definitely an issue. This is why I hermetically sealed my interconnects and put silver oxidation inhibitor in there. It's a more serious problem for copper. Copper is fine, as long as its silver-plated or tin-plated. Stranded copper is the worst IMO. Never touch the stuff.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

It depends on type of copper and the insulator. I had some Mogami cable (4mm2 multistrand with ultra thin wires) about forty years old in storage in my garage and recently looked for it and stripped the insulator at the extremes to fit connectors - it was like fresh copper wire, no vestiges at all of oxidation.
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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I used to own an auto/welding shop and have seen plenty of corroded wires in autos, all stranded copper, the corrosion starts at an end and works it's way down the wire. Some say corrosion doesn't matter when talking about audio cables but I've seen many wires simply stop working and not just battery wires... power window/door wires, fuel pump wires, all sorts of wires just stop working after a while when they corrode.

I did build one cable with wire in teflon tube, then flushed the tube with nitrogen gas and sealed the ends. It is slightly better vs teflon insulation that conforms to the wire, but labor is a PITA and the ends of teflon tube require some not-generally-available adhesives to properly seal.

I got some stranded copper wire once from a surplus electronics place. The stuff was so awful, I don't think you could light a lamp with it....

My interconnect cables were bare silver, supported by a custom structure that I fabricated. A bit better performance, and more durable than sewing through a cotton rope. I think a number of cable companies are doing this now.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

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Oct 12, 2017
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www.empiricalaudio.com
It depends on type of copper and the insulator. I had some Mogami cable (4mm2 multistrand with ultra thin wires) about forty years old in storage in my garage and recently looked for it and stripped the insulator at the extremes to fit connectors - it was like fresh copper wire, no vestiges at all of oxidation.


It does not take much, less than you can see. The more pure the copper is, the slower it will oxidize, so that was probably the reason.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

bonzo75

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