Who REALLY makes the cables - For "Fill in the Blank" Audiophile Brand?

cjf

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2012
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948
Hello,

I often wonder how many, out of the hundreds of high end brand offerings available, are actually %100 made by the companies who bring them to market? By this I mean a cable made solely in house, creating the conductors, twisting, jacketing and terminating the wires by their own employees and equipment in an artisan like fashion that one would expect when paying top dollar for Brand X?

Everyone knows that almost every Highend Audiophile cable gets covered up by the familiar "TechFlex" jacket before leaving the building so unless one was feeling very brave I'm sure the company is counting on the end user not pulling apart their 4-5 digit priced cable just to see whats under the covers.

What would your opinion be of an Audiophile branded cable that may have been farmed out to one of the big suppliers who take "Custom" orders from customers and turn around and make said cable to their customers Spec? Or maybe worse, just using some bog standard wire and making it look Highend using all the necessary Audiophile branding, labeling of Brand X. Would you be concerned, alarmed or less enthusiastic about Brand X knowing this and also knowing what that cable gets turned around and sold for some obscene price? Does it even matter if the end result sounds good to your ears?

I can only think of a few brands who probably have the ability to do the whole enchilada in house without farming out the work (Cardas being one of them).

What are your thoughts on this..Thanks
 

Leif S

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Feb 13, 2015
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The MasterBuilt Cables are from start to finish as far as the cable itself but they use Furutech and WBT to complete the product.
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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Very few build the whole enchilada, but I see no problem with this. The problem you have seems to be misrepresentation, and I'd agree it's not fair to take a commodity product, dress it up, and sell it for big $. I honestly don't know how many do this, but things have been uncovered and outed in the past so it does exist.

As a consumer, why not just buy from a company that is transparent, open and honest about their product? They do exist... I say exactly what goes into my cables. No mystery, no drama, no big deal.
 

Empirical Audio

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From my own experience, analog cables that can be mass-produced on reels and cut to length are never as good as a hand-built cable because one can get more air around the conductors and use bare-wire conductors etc.., all of which makes an interconnect better anyway. IF a company builds by hand, they can use the best parts available. Just because the wire or the connector is not built in-house does not mean it is not the best available solution. Every cable company cannot do OCC copper or silver for instance.

Digital cables are another matter. The impedance of these must be uniform over their length, so they really should be machine-built.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

cjf

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2012
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948
Thanks for the comments thus far.

I'm not sure how many possible sources there are globally of big supply shops who are capable of drawing the actual conductors but I imagine its not too many. To this point I'm not really bothered by that but what would concern me is finding out that underneath all that fancy packaging/sheathing and TechFelx lies something along the lines of a Mogami/RapcoHorizon/Belden/Canare or similar bulk wire that one could normally acquire at greatly reduced prices otherwise.

I dont think I would even be too bothered to know that some custom recipe of off the shelf wire was used from places like Southwire or similar who have a massive selection of cable for various industries and then it was built/packaged/wound/terminated to Spec provided by Audiophile Brand X company. This would be somewhat reasonable in my mind since Brand X company would have spent the necessary time/money/R&D testing the recipe to achieve the desired sound as an end result.

I guess I just shudder at the thought of peeling back a few layers of a multi thousand dollar cable to find nothing but Mogami/Canare/Zip Cord hiding underneath. At the end of the day I guess one will only know if they are brave/rich enough to pull out the box cutter and go to town on the wire with zero concerns of it being usable/marketable afterwards all for the sake of satisfying their curiosity.

Maybe the real answer is to just not purchase anything that uses TechFlex :)
 

Ron Resnick

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Jan 24, 2015
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Isn't Cardas one of the very few which extrudes its own copper and makes everything from scratch? I think they also make (white label) a lot of stuff for other cable companies.
 

cjf

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2012
452
101
948
Hello Ron,

Cardas was the only "Audiophile" type wire company I could readily think of that may be one of the select few who do it all or can do it all themselves. I cant think of anyone else offhand
 

DaveC

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Nov 16, 2014
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There are just a handful of companies that actually draw wire and make cable for the audio market. IMO, Wan Lung in Taiwan sits at the top of the heap and is responsible for dozens of cable co's products and most of what is stated to be UPOCC is made by them. They have the Neotech and Harmonic Tech brands. Their UPOCC silver wire in ptfe/teflon insulation has been used in many top-$ cables including top end Siltech and Wireworld. I use their UPOCC silver/gold alloy wire which is even better, but I just buy the wire as a custom product and hand make the cables from bare wire. The other way to do it is to have the cable made by machine. More on that later...

New England Wire, Cardas and maybe some others in the US make custom wire and cable, Furukowa in Japan also makes audio wire and cables for Furutech and others. Europe has several wire/cable co's whose products make it into the audio market.

Audio cable co's either make their cables by hand from wire or have the cable machine-made. Hand made cables have some potential advantages that are especially important with interconnect cables, machine made cables have other potential advantages that might make them more ideal for other uses... like an HDMI cable, not sure anyone wants to attempt to hand-make one, I'm not going to try. Hand made cables can be very consistent in terms of the total cable length as the geometry can be randomized so errors are also randomized where with machine made cable you'll get the same error along the entire length of the cable. If you want to be able to step on a cable, it better be machine made... but really... don't step on audio cables ever.

Tech flex is unfortunately ubiquitous and people see it as "high end" when in truth it's very inexpensive and not an ideal cover for a cable imo. It's not horrible though, a heavy PVC cover is a lot worse, and if kept away from the conductors won't have much effect. The cotton tubing I use sounds best but isn't as durable or easy to clean. This isn't a big problem for the intended application though, dust is usually the worst thing the cable ever sees and it never gets abraded on anything.
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Thanks for the comments thus far.

I'm not sure how many possible sources there are globally of big supply shops who are capable of drawing the actual conductors but I imagine its not too many. To this point I'm not really bothered by that but what would concern me is finding out that underneath all that fancy packaging/sheathing and TechFelx lies something along the lines of a Mogami/RapcoHorizon/Belden/Canare or similar bulk wire that one could normally acquire at greatly reduced prices otherwise.

I dont think I would even be too bothered to know that some custom recipe of off the shelf wire was used from places like Southwire or similar who have a massive selection of cable for various industries and then it was built/packaged/wound/terminated to Spec provided by Audiophile Brand X company. This would be somewhat reasonable in my mind since Brand X company would have spent the necessary time/money/R&D testing the recipe to achieve the desired sound as an end result.

I guess I just shudder at the thought of peeling back a few layers of a multi thousand dollar cable to find nothing but Mogami/Canare/Zip Cord hiding underneath. At the end of the day I guess one will only know if they are brave/rich enough to pull out the box cutter and go to town on the wire with zero concerns of it being usable/marketable afterwards all for the sake of satisfying their curiosity.

Maybe the real answer is to just not purchase anything that uses TechFlex :)

What does Techflex have to do with it? What you should do is read the technical description of the cable. Find out what physics are being used to make it superior. Find out what dielectrics and wire metallurgy are used. If that cannot be explained or divulged, it is suspicious. If you don't know anything about physics, ask someone on the forums who does.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
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150
Great Pacific Northwest
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There are just a handful of companies that actually draw wire and make cable for the audio market. IMO, Wan Lung in Taiwan sits at the top of the heap and is responsible for dozens of cable co's products and most of what is stated to be UPOCC is made by them. They have the Neotech and Harmonic Tech brands. Their UPOCC silver wire in ptfe/teflon insulation has been used in many top-$ cables including top end Siltech and Wireworld. I use their UPOCC silver/gold alloy wire which is even better, but I just buy the wire as a custom product and hand make the cables from bare wire. The other way to do it is to have the cable made by machine. More on that later...

New England Wire, Cardas and maybe some others in the US make custom wire and cable, Furukowa in Japan also makes audio wire and cables for Furutech and others. Europe has several wire/cable co's whose products make it into the audio market.

Audio cable co's either make their cables by hand from wire or have the cable machine-made. Hand made cables have some potential advantages that are especially important with interconnect cables, machine made cables have other potential advantages that might make them more ideal for other uses... like an HDMI cable, not sure anyone wants to attempt to hand-make one, I'm not going to try. Hand made cables can be very consistent in terms of the total cable length as the geometry can be randomized so errors are also randomized where with machine made cable you'll get the same error along the entire length of the cable. If you want to be able to step on a cable, it better be machine made... but really... don't step on audio cables ever.

Tech flex is unfortunately ubiquitous and people see it as "high end" when in truth it's very inexpensive and not an ideal cover for a cable imo. It's not horrible though, a heavy PVC cover is a lot worse, and if kept away from the conductors won't have much effect. The cotton tubing I use sounds best but isn't as durable or easy to clean. This isn't a big problem for the intended application though, dust is usually the worst thing the cable ever sees and it never gets abraded on anything.

I tried to build a long USB cable by hand one time. Didn't turn out good. Waste of money, time and parts.

Steve N.
 

KeithR

VIP/Donor
May 7, 2010
5,144
2,812
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Encino, CA
Hello Ron,

Cardas was the only "Audiophile" type wire company I could readily think of that may be one of the select few who do it all or can do it all themselves. I cant think of anyone else offhand

Zu sources its own metals.
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
There are just a handful of companies that actually draw wire and make cable for the audio market. IMO, Wan Lung in Taiwan sits at the top of the heap and is responsible for dozens of cable co's products and most of what is stated to be UPOCC is made by them. They have the Neotech and Harmonic Tech brands. Their UPOCC silver wire in ptfe/teflon insulation has been used in many top-$ cables including top end Siltech and Wireworld. I use their UPOCC silver/gold alloy wire which is even better, but I just buy the wire as a custom product and hand make the cables from bare wire. The other way to do it is to have the cable made by machine. More on that later...

New England Wire, Cardas and maybe some others in the US make custom wire and cable, Furukowa in Japan also makes audio wire and cables for Furutech and others. Europe has several wire/cable co's whose products make it into the audio market.

Audio cable co's either make their cables by hand from wire or have the cable machine-made. Hand made cables have some potential advantages that are especially important with interconnect cables, machine made cables have other potential advantages that might make them more ideal for other uses... like an HDMI cable, not sure anyone wants to attempt to hand-make one, I'm not going to try. Hand made cables can be very consistent in terms of the total cable length as the geometry can be randomized so errors are also randomized where with machine made cable you'll get the same error along the entire length of the cable. If you want to be able to step on a cable, it better be machine made... but really... don't step on audio cables ever.

Tech flex is unfortunately ubiquitous and people see it as "high end" when in truth it's very inexpensive and not an ideal cover for a cable imo. It's not horrible though, a heavy PVC cover is a lot worse, and if kept away from the conductors won't have much effect. The cotton tubing I use sounds best but isn't as durable or easy to clean. This isn't a big problem for the intended application though, dust is usually the worst thing the cable ever sees and it never gets abraded on anything.

Thanks for shedding light on the "Murky" cable business. I think it's safe to say the margin is the highest of any gear in hi end audio industry....
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
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www.empiricalaudio.com
Thanks for shedding light on the "Murky" cable business. I think it's safe to say the margin is the highest of any gear in hi end audio industry....

Margins are high on good performing cables, but often because they are so labor-intensive. Others that are more automated require huge up-front investments to get custom cable fabricated, like Nordost for instance.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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Margins are high on good performing cables, but often because they are so labor-intensive. Others that are more automated require huge up-front investments to get custom cable fabricated, like Nordost for instance.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

That makes sense and in Nordost's case, I do believe they sell wire/cable to the aerospace industry so those cable assembly machines have other market uses.
 

DaveC

Industry Expert
Nov 16, 2014
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Thanks for shedding light on the "Murky" cable business. I think it's safe to say the margin is the highest of any gear in hi end audio industry....

For some yes, but it's the same kind of thing as other high end audio products for many... dealers are making much more than manufacturers and the costs of marketing are way out there, but necessary to maintain relevance in an overly competitive market. Direct-sale businesses like mine can offer similar products for 3-5x less vs dealer sale businesses as a result. Many of my products are a simple 2x markup instead of 6-10x.

There's plenty of shady practices going on in every market segment of high end audio and not just cables, remember the Oppo guts in Lexicon chassis thing? Many high end speakers source parts and cabinets from high volume mass-market manufacturers, etc, etc... really just like anything else. Many luxury products are actually far worse to be honest, like perfumes and cosmetics, often the actual product costs less than the packaging. High end clothing is often a joke too, low-end Chinese production for top-$ in some cases. We all need to be careful these days...
 

cjf

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2012
452
101
948
What does Techflex have to do with it? What you should do is read the technical description of the cable. Find out what physics are being used to make it superior. Find out what dielectrics and wire metallurgy are used. If that cannot be explained or divulged, it is suspicious. If you don't know anything about physics, ask someone on the forums who does.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

Well, at the very basic of levels I could choose to blame TechFlex for being the one piece of the puzzle that covers up whats truly going on under the covers. I was hoping my attempt at humor here at blaming Techflex was a bit more obvious but apparently it wasn't.

While I agree with you fully that reading the technical descriptions and specs would be the way to go I'm afraid that in most cases Audiophile Brand X cables fail to post engineering worthy descriptions and Specs. At least thats been my experience up to this point. Of course there are a few exceptions (probably less than I have fingers on two hands, and thats being generous).
 

Empirical Audio

Industry Expert
Oct 12, 2017
1,169
207
150
Great Pacific Northwest
www.empiricalaudio.com
Well, at the very basic of levels I could choose to blame TechFlex for being the one piece of the puzzle that covers up whats truly going on under the covers. I was hoping my attempt at humor here at blaming Techflex was a bit more obvious but apparently it wasn't.

While I agree with you fully that reading the technical descriptions and specs would be the way to go I'm afraid that in most cases Audiophile Brand X cables fail to post engineering worthy descriptions and Specs. At least thats been my experience up to this point. Of course there are a few exceptions (probably less than I have fingers on two hands, and thats being generous).

Exactly why I don't buy brand X cables. Another dead giveaway that the manufacturer/brand knows little about the physics is the same design being used for both interconnects and speaker cables. Makes no sense given the physics of the two scenerios.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
7,097
412
1,210
Northern NY
For some yes, but it's the same kind of thing as other high end audio products for many... dealers are making much more than manufacturers and the costs of marketing are way out there, but necessary to maintain relevance in an overly competitive market. Direct-sale businesses like mine can offer similar products for 3-5x less vs dealer sale businesses as a result. Many of my products are a simple 2x markup instead of 6-10x.

There's plenty of shady practices going on in every market segment of high end audio and not just cables, remember the Oppo guts in Lexicon chassis thing? Many high end speakers source parts and cabinets from high volume mass-market manufacturers, etc, etc... really just like anything else. Many luxury products are actually far worse to be honest, like perfumes and cosmetics, often the actual product costs less than the packaging. High end clothing is often a joke too, low-end Chinese production for top-$ in some cases. We all need to be careful these days...

Thanks Dave. I guess I was pinning too much blame on the cable makers when the real culprit is an inefficient distribution model that marks up the product too much by the time it makes it to the end user.
 

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