I agree with Paul. A lot of people experience positive effects of using ground box. I’m trying to to achieve similar effects using cheaper means. But certainly installing more ground rods PROPERLY won’t harm the system.
Perhaps a little illustration will help folks understand how grounding works - notice how the outlet's neutral and ground wires (white, green) are 'bonded' at the breaker panel, and then both connected to earth ground
As far as I know in many countries in Europe the neutral is not bonded to the local (house) ground - it is bonded at the local distribution transformer.
As far as I know in many countries in Europe the neutral is not bonded to the local (house) ground - it is bonded at the local distribution transformer.
The local distribution transformer can never be far away, otherwise losses would be high. in my case, there is a distribution transformer less than 50m away - a good thing, power is very stable.
The local distribution transformer can never be far away, otherwise losses would be high. in my case, there is a distribution transformer less than 50m away - a good thing, power is very stable.
That doesn't make any sense... do you have separate wires coming out of your house connecting to the transformer? Even if you have just one, others inside the house would be bonded to it. Then multiply that one cable by the number of houses doing the same, to the same transformer. This really makes no sense
That doesn't make any sense... do you have separate wires coming out of your house connecting to the transformer? Even if you have just one, others inside the house would be bonded to it. Then multiply that one cable by the number of houses doing the same, to the same transformer. This really makes no sense
It makes a lot of sense. Actually I have four independent wires coming in my house - the neutral and there 230V phases displaced by 120º - it is the European mains system. Some people have only two wires, depending on power needs - one neutral and a phase wire.
"North America has standardized on a 120/240-V secondary system; on these, voltage drop constrains how far utilities can run secondaries, typically no more than 250 ft. In European designs, higher secondary voltages allow secondaries to stretch to almost 1 mi.
European secondaries are largely three-phase and most European countries have a standard secondary voltage of 220, 230, or 240 V, twice the North American standard."
Yes three wires for power phases, one more for ground. So bonded at the transformer and no ground rod? what happens when lightning hits? Sounds like your equipment may be hit and the transformer
I kinda think we are talking about two different things. An old school ground loop from a bad equipment ground design that causes an obvious humming is not the issue. Those issues where cleaned up by any competent designer long, long ago and of course, as Ralph indicates, the fix for this problem should never even be attempted with a local stray voltage sink as we are discussing. The problem we are talking about assumes the equipment is properly designed and is a much more subtle issue related to noise floor.
The concept I think the OP, SCAudiophile and I are addressing is the very low level hash in the noise floor of highly resolving systems that is caused by stray voltages at the equipment induced by motors, switch mode power supplies and digital electronics which in turn run across the ground in equipment interconnects if the ground potential at outlets is not equal. Ralph, when you say all outlets have equal potential and this potential equals that of earth ground it is clear to me we are talking apples and oranges. I am referencing small potential differnces that are caused by the ground wire length and gauge differences and ground wire proximity to current carrying wires that induce potential in the ground cable. These small potential differences cause induced stray voltages in the equipment to travel across interconnects to the outlet with the lowest impedance causing the hash in question.
People clean this up by grounding the equipment to local ground boxes or even in some cases blocks of copper. Both work great. (Read any of the many threads on ground boxes.) The fear I have is how these devices work if the equipment housing actually shorts at some point. I prefer having the short run directly from all outlets as a star to a rod in the ground rather than a device in my room. This rod of course must be tied to the central ground of the facility for code and be surge protected for lightning strikes that can run between multiple ground points due to earth ground potential differences. This is common practice in telecommunications.
Text in bold: as far as I know, this statement is false. What I run into quite commonly is that audio equipment is not properly grounded- on account of its design. Some very well-known companies make common errors in this regard! OTOH I also find that if a company knew its grounding theory, equipment made by it decades ago is properly grounded. IME, because the results are all over the map its not a good idea to assume that the manufacturer of your equipment knew what he was doing.
Until that missive is sorted, its pointless IME to go after other bits of noise- you'll be chasing your tail.
If you look in the manual of some of the grounding devices you mentioned, you may find a comment that says that the grounding device will not offer a benefit if the equipment in the system is already properly grounded.
Yes three wires for power phases, one more for ground. So bonded at the transformer and no ground rod? what happens when lightning hits? Sounds like your equipment may be hit and the transformer
One more wire for neutral, not for ground. Fortunately the cable that brings power to my house is grounded, I do not think about close thunderstorms! Any way if lightning hits your local power wires directly you probably can say goodbye to your equipment ...
The ground rod is local to the house and all the house ground wires are connected to a single point at the distribution board.
I kinda think we are talking about two different things. An old school ground loop from a bad equipment ground design that causes an obvious humming is not the issue. Those issues where cleaned up by any competent designer long, long ago and of course, as Ralph indicates, the fix for this problem should never even be attempted with a local stray voltage sink as we are discussing. The problem we are talking about assumes the equipment is properly designed and is a much more subtle issue related to noise floor.
The concept I think the OP, SCAudiophile and I are addressing is the very low level hash in the noise floor of highly resolving systems that is caused by stray voltages at the equipment induced by motors, switch mode power supplies and digital electronics which in turn run across the ground in equipment interconnects if the ground potential at outlets is not equal. Ralph, when you say all outlets have equal potential and this potential equals that of earth ground it is clear to me we are talking apples and oranges. I am referencing small potential differnces that are caused by the ground wire length and gauge differences and ground wire proximity to current carrying wires that induce potential in the ground cable. These small potential differences cause induced stray voltages in the equipment to travel across interconnects to the outlet with the lowest impedance causing the hash in question.
People clean this up by grounding the equipment to local ground boxes or even in some cases blocks of copper. Both work great. (Read any of the many threads on ground boxes.) The fear I have is how these devices work if the equipment housing actually shorts at some point. I prefer having the short run directly from all outlets as a star to a rod in the ground rather than a device in my room. This rod of course must be tied to the central ground of the facility for code and be surge protected for lightning strikes that can run between multiple ground points due to earth ground potential differences. This is common practice in telecommunications.
Text in bold: as far as I know, this statement is false. What I run into quite commonly is that audio equipment is not properly grounded- on account of its design. Some very well-known companies make common errors in this regard! OTOH I also find that if a company knew its grounding theory, equipment made by it decades ago is properly grounded. IME, because the results are all over the map its not a good idea to assume that the manufacturer of your equipment knew what he was doing.
Until that missive is sorted, its pointless IME to go after other bits of noise- you'll be chasing your tail.
If you look in the manual of some of the grounding devices you mentioned, you may find a comment that says that the grounding device will not offer a benefit if the equipment in the system is already properly grounded.
Ralph I think I am in general agreement with your comments. I think the operative word in my statement regarding "designers cleaning up traditional ground loop problems (in equipment) long ago" was the adjective "competent" in front of designers. You obviously have this figured out. If we agree on that point and only consider equipment with a proper grounding design, the discussion turns to the merits of low level hash elimination through ground potential equalization close to the equipment. In low noise floor, highly resolving equipment like my Soulution amps this has born fruit.
I would argue the comments in the literature you refer to from the grounding box device manufacturers is with respect to proper grounding systems like mine that have equalized local connector ground potential not the equipment design problem to which you refer. I clearly believe a local ground sink (be it a grounding box or rod) can improve low level hash in an unbalanced ground potential system, but I do not think a grounding box will improve a properly balanced ground potential system using rods like the ones SC, the OP and I have employed. All that said I do agree, to your point, that a grounding box or local grounding rod is NOT the solution to an improper grounding scheme in the equipment.
