Turntables: Vintage or New?

DaveyF

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How about a vintage design made now ? Best of both worlds ?

Interesting that you point this out.
The Linn is a vintage design...and is made now. However, unlike all of the other vintage designs, the LP12 has undergone constant updates and upgrades. This has resulted in a table that is far far more capable than what it was when it was introduced. Linn is the only company that i know of that has offered upgrades to the original platform that will allow the user to bring their table up to the current standard.
One of the unfortunate aspects about this is that many people believe that the old version that they heard five years ago, ten years ago, even twenty plus years ago, is representative of today's maxed out model, when in fact nothing could be further from the fact. This has come back to haunt Linn in the last few years, but I do feel that this is something that could be minimized if more people would go and listen for themselves vs. come on forums and just take for granted some "vaunted" members opinion. ( which is exactly what it is...and nothing more) IMHO
 

rockitman

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How old does a design have to be to be considered "vintage"? The SME Model 30 was designed in the mid 90s I believe, around the time that vinyl records were declared dead. It is still being made, but there have been updates to the bearing and motor controller.

1970's early 80's ?
 

Tango

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spiritofmusic

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My take on a current tt that may rival the EMT 927.
Audiosilente Blackstone idler out of Italy.
www.audiosilente.com
This one really intrigues me, and is a worthy alternative to the mirage/dead in the water Saskia idler.
Twin graphite plates plinth.
Irresistible Papst 3-phase motor.
Composite bronze/graphite 8kg platter.
All-new ground-up design idler drive mechanism.
Quartz speed controller all-analog/non-digital servo feedback.

From what I’ve gleaned this device uses graphite to naturally disperse vibns, heavy platter to max moment of inertia, super powerful motor to provide twice the torque of the SP10, quartz fine speed control, and then via the powerful motor and platter flywheel effect it only has to correct speed minutely and sporadically, avoiding moment to moment hunt/seek adjusting that some of the older DDs were guilty of.
 

Folsom

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How about a vintage design made now ? Best of both worlds ?

Why not make them better? It's possible. Hence why I'm not sure why it would be impossible to make something as good as the vintage ones David talks about. Is it really possible the old ones were made smarter, and we can't possible come up with anything new? OR maybe the old ones were actually noisy and people like the noise they had.

Don't get me wrong, I like vintage tables and will probably own another TT that is vintage. I just don't believe that it is so... impossible.
 

rockitman

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They should be if possible. I guess I was alluding to my own case with an AS2000. The design of the table is basically the same as the original from the 1970's...air bearing, no vacuum, massive weight. Now...better Motor (Pabst) and German precision motor controller who's name escapes me. So yes...can be old design executed with the best of today's electronic technology (motors/controllers), ect.

Why not make them better? It's possible. Hence why I'm not sure why it would be impossible to make something as good as the vintage ones David talks about. Is it really possible the old ones were made smarter, and we can't possible come up with anything new? OR maybe the old ones were actually noisy and people like the noise they had.

Don't get me wrong, I like vintage tables and will probably own another TT that is vintage. I just don't believe that it is so... impossible.
 

morricab

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You have to take ultra tables like the EMT 927, AS, Thorens Reference, Goldmund Reference and the two top Micros of yesterday out of this conversation, this group is sonically above anything else I know of at any price point. They were produced in very small quantities, difficult to very rare these days and generally unaffordable by most but they still can be considered bargains compared to the top tier tts of today which IMO none measure up sonically. If you look at the top tier landscape only Nishikawa is has a proven track record going back to the height of analog and you can see it in his designs, who else is there? I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes here but the others you name are mid level products at best and easily equaled and beat by those special vintage tts at lower costs. There's not a ton of them below $10k and are the usual culprits from Garrard, Lenco in the right plinths and a couple of Micro Seiki models everyone's familiar with and after, the majority of the vintage specially the dd's were nothing special then and aren't anything to get excited about these days unless you're looking for under $1k then quite of a few will kill the dreck available today at the low end. The reason consensus is meaningless in this hobby is because the only way to know is through years of experience and experience with lots of things and having been able to make sense of that experience; very few have done it and vinyl reproduction is particularly difficult because you simply don't know until you've heard the top decks properly setup with equal quality ancillaries. It's the same with manufacturers!

david
Why no love for DDs, David? Stereo Sound Japan thought VERY highly of the Exclusive P3, for example.
 

Tango

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Studer A-820's were built mostly in the late 70's and early 80's. a 70's design.

are they vintage?

they are the tip-top of analog goodness.

They could be top of analog Himalayas but 1970's a vintage? Our definition of vintage is definitely not the same.
To me a vintage is something from early 60's down like Gerrard, Thorens, EMT, RCA. Why would vintage audio be so young compare to other vintage objects like car.

You could be vintage by my definition, Mr.Lavigne :p.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

Mike Lavigne

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They could be top of analog Himalayas but 1970's a vintage? Our definition of vintage is definitely not the same.
To me a vintage is something from early 60's down like Gerrard, Thorens, EMT, RCA. Why would vintage audio be so young compare to other vintage objects like car.

You could be vintage by my definition, Mr.Lavigne :p.

Kind regards,
Tang

i'm 51' vintage.

my kids are 70's, so maybe that's not vintage.
 

ddk

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Why no love for DDs, David? Stereo Sound Japan thought VERY highly of the Exclusive P3, for example.

This is no different than preferring SETs over SS or a vintage horn speaker over others Brad and at the end of the day it's all relative to what. I had the P3, SL-1000mk2, SP-100mk3, EMT 950 and Denon DP-100 all very good tables and I would even say that the Exclusive & the Denon are actually excellent tts but at the end of the day I prefer the sound quality of some idlers & belt drives better, that's all otherwise I'm not discounting them but the Denon is extremely rare and the Exclusive in proper working condition is hard to come by these. One thing I will add is that my choices were made when I knew how to properly set up a table and had already settled with my system for a number of years and it's still basically the same today.

david
 

microstrip

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Studer A-820's were built mostly in the late 70's and early 80's. a 70's design.

are they vintage?

they are the tip-top of analog goodness.

I would consider the A80 as vintage, but surely not the A820. Probably because the A80 only uses discrete electronics and logic ICs from the 74LS family, with analog electro-mechanics, and the A820 uses microprocessors. The A820 can be considered an embedded system!
 

ddk

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Why not make them better? It's possible. Hence why I'm not sure why it would be impossible to make something as good as the vintage ones David talks about. Is it really possible the old ones were made smarter, and we can't possible come up with anything new? OR maybe the old ones were actually noisy and people like the noise they had.

Don't get me wrong, I like vintage tables and will probably own another TT that is vintage. I just don't believe that it is so... impossible.

None of those companies exist today and gone with them is their sensibilities and knowledge. A tt like a speaker, cartridge, amplifier is as much a work of art as is an engineering feat. You can make anything today and probably even technically better but the art part is something else. It was an issue then as it is now, from the hundreds if not thousands of tts back then and incredible number of new ones today how few actually stand out? It's the same number, 5-10 units that stood out back then and probably another 5-10 today. The beauty of these designs is that in a blind test you'll never distinguish between the age of the tables but the different flavors each offer wether vintage or current.

david
 

microstrip

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(...) Irresistible Papst 3-phase motor. (...)

How did you guess? :confused:

Some of the best existing Papst 3-phase motors - Studer A80, A807 and PR99 capstan motors.
 

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Folsom

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None of those companies exist today and gone with them is their sensibilities and knowledge. A tt like a speaker, cartridge, amplifier is as much a work of art as is an engineering feat. You can make anything today and probably even technically better but the art part is something else. It was an issue then as it is now, from the hundreds if not thousands of tts back then and incredible number of new ones today how few actually stand out? It's the same number, 5-10 units that stood out back then and probably another 5-10 today. The beauty of these designs is that in a blind test you'll never distinguish between the age of the tables but the different flavors each offer wether vintage or current.

david

Maybe that's the problem... Why would I want my TT to stand out? To me the invisible TT is best. Considering comparisons to master tapes have been performed on playback that is supposedly inferior, and no mastering engineer or cutting engineer, etc, can tell the difference... tells me that many stand out machines might be giving a flavor. In fact I'm sure of it when they have a metal surface for the platter used with nothing in between. Obviously I can't argue anyones preference, but I have no doubt many like a flavor since different metal platters get ordered all day, and no mats are used on them.

Countless things in the past where about compensating for their inability to manufacturer, or complementing equipment. While it was smart at the time, I'm not sure I'd say it is today. However many may prefer that sound. It's not like there is a shortage of sound shaping today.
 

spiritofmusic

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I’m as much a fan of tech from the past.
I run a planetarium-grade 1990s Barco 1309 CRT pj, 200lb of big beastie home cinema device that I still feels has a substantial advantage even over 4K digital pj’s of today.
I still use my 1968 Citroen DS as my daily transport, it’s oleo pneumatic heart powering suspension, steering, gear change and brakes still performing brilliantly a half century on.
In my potential final tt purchase I may go with an old drivetrain ie idler, but updated for 2017 with a ground up new mechanism, foolproof modern Papst motor, optical encoder and quartz speed controller, and very up to date use of materials for platter and plinth. Hoping to get the best of the old and the new.
 

microstrip

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(...) In my potential final tt purchase I may go with an old drivetrain ie idler, but updated for 2017 with a ground up new mechanism, foolproof modern Papst motor, optical encoder and quartz speed controller, and very up to date use of materials for platter and plinth. Hoping to get the best of the old and the new.

And the winner is???
 

spiritofmusic

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Audiosilente Blackstone Reference idler.
 

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