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Thread: Turntables: Vintage or New?

  1. #81
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    The same arm/cartridge was used on the tables. The arm is a Stogi S 12 w/VTA and a Lyra cartridge.

    Maybe I was being a bit hyperbolic with my statement, but there definitely was a noticeable improvement with Kronos.
    Thanks Simon. The same arm and cartridge makes the comparisons that much more meaningful. I'm not so interested in the degree of the preference for the Kronos, just in the ways that you and he think it sounds different. That is a wide variety of tables, and as Bonzo writes, they all sound different. And yet, the Kronos is preferred, and it is the modern belt drive design. I don't know if we can reach any conclusions about that per se, but we do know that he bought the Kronos because he prefers that sound to all the others with the same arm/cartridge. I'm interesting in learning what differences he heard. That could perhaps tell us something. Thank you.
    My system link on WBF: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Sublime-Sound
    Analog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thanks Simon. The same arm and cartridge makes the comparisons that much more meaningful. I'm not so interested in the degree of the preference for the Kronos, just in the ways that you and he think it sounds different. That is a wide variety of tables, and as Bonzo writes, they all sound different. And yet, the Kronos is preferred, and it is the modern belt drive design. I don't know if we can reach any conclusions about that per se, but we do know that he bought the Kronos because he prefers that sound to all the others with the same arm/cartridge. I'm interesting in learning what differences he heard. That could perhaps tell us something. Thank you.
    I would prefer the kronos to those. My preference on the restores I have heard is mainly to certain TD 124s and technics. Of course, the right micro Seiki 8000 would be a direct belt to belt compare with kronos.

    I think I am off bells, though that can change with one session of a good belt drive. But the right idlers and directs definitely give me more pleasure, and in terms of value for money, restores are a slam dunk
    Audition recordings: Zero Distortion Link; Reference Components: Zero Distortion Link; Own: Lampi GG One-day-to-get: Apogee Scintilla, or a horn (with Tenor 75 OTL ), Preamp to be fit in to suit the gain and drive the power amp. Analog: TBD

  3. #83
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzo75 View Post
    I would prefer the kronos to those. My preference on the restores I have heard is mainly to certain TD 124s and technics. Of course, the right micro Seiki 8000 would be a direct belt to belt compare with kronos.

    I think I am off bells, though that can change with one session of a good belt drive. But the right idlers and directs definitely give me more pleasure, and in terms of value for money, restores are a slam dunk
    Well, if you bring value into it, sure, it may change the end result if one gives less priority to sonic preference and more to affordability. I have always thought that restored vintage tables should be compared to good condition used tables in terms of value rather than to new modern tables sold at retail. I wonder how a used Kronos Spartan, TechDAS 2 or SME Model 30 would compare to some of the more expensive restores in Europe. SME and Brinkman, as well as other current model European tables can offer pretty good value if found used in their countries of origin.

    I was not under the impression that Simon's friend preferred the Kronos Pro because of a perception of value, but rather for a preference for its sonic qualities.
    My system link on WBF: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Sublime-Sound
    Analog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
    Electronics: Pass Labs XA160.5 amp, XP-22 preamp, XP-25 phono, Cables: Transparent REF XL MM2,
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Well, if you bring value into it, sure, it may change the end result if one gives less priority to sonic preference and more to affordability. I have always thought that restored vintage tables should be compared to good condition used tables in terms of value rather than to new modern tables sold at retail. I wonder how a used Kronos Spartan, TechDAS 2 or SME Model 30 would compare to some of the more expensive restores in Europe. SME and Brinkman, as well as other current model European tables can offer pretty good value if found used in their countries of origin.

    I was not under the impression that Simon's friend preferred the Kronos Pro because of a perception of value, but rather for a preference for its sonic qualities.
    I made two points, one without value consideration, one with. I added value consideration separately at the end of my post.
    Audition recordings: Zero Distortion Link; Reference Components: Zero Distortion Link; Own: Lampi GG One-day-to-get: Apogee Scintilla, or a horn (with Tenor 75 OTL ), Preamp to be fit in to suit the gain and drive the power amp. Analog: TBD

  5. #85
    Can I just add some observations:

    Firstly many vintage decks are not quite vintage in that they use modern plinths and power supplies. Indeed many have new bearings or modifications - I think sp10’s get such a working over like Albert Porters
    Secondly vintage decks have certain parts that can’t be made today at price for the market. For instance the Sony TTS and psx9 have a magnetic strip like an audio tape on the platter to control speed - jvc tt101 has a dual servo mechanism. Such technology is far in advance of technology used today in many decks. I think Harry Weisfeld said something about the cost of tooling for N sp10 is immense and just not economically feasible.
    Several tt’s use generic brushless dc motor’s that a cottage manufacturer buys and uses in a deck brought to market as a new turntable. Many high end vintage decks had bespoke parts.
    My point is that vintage decks have some real relevance even now - and for the money can deliver excellent results. I am not saying they are the be all and end all because that would be a sweeping generality - but an awareness of what is available may well help you find vinyl nirvana

  6. #86
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    How about a current production vintage turntable like the Platine Verdier - designed in the 1980s and still in production (although JC Verdier passed away a couple of years ago)? Here's mine with two tonearms - 1970s vintage Hadcock 228 with a John Wright rebuilt Decca FFSS MkIV C4E and a Schroeder Model 2 with Allaerts MC1B

    R2R: Studer A820 1/2 inch 2 track; Otari MTR-12 1/4 inch 2 track; Sony APR 5003; Sony APR 5002; Studer A807/II. Vinyl: Platine Verdier Allaerts MC1B/Schroeder Model 2 Decca C4E/Hadcock 228 TRON Seven Reference phono. Other analogue source: Nakamichi Dragon with ANT4066 mods. Amplification: TRON Meteor preamp TRON Voyager 20B SET power. Speakers: Avantgarde Duo. Digital: does not compute

  7. #87
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    Another vote for the Verdier. There is a good reason for its longevity and why it had been emulated by so many designers. It is not fashionable, it is quite agricultural looking, and Verdier do not come out with endless new models every couple of years. It can be 'improved'; suspension, bearing, and motor quite easily and well worth the effort.

  8. #88
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    My cousin has had just about every vintage table mentioned in this thread, refurbished and mounted in various plinths. He must have gone through 7 tables in the last 2 years, and more before that. Idlers, DD's, belts etc. Several EMT, a Garard, Linn, SP10, and more I can't remember. I've heard every one for extended listening sessions. Some of you may have purchased some of his, or sold them to him.

    And none of them, and he agrees, have come close to the Kronos PRO he bought a couple of months ago.

    I, on the other hand, do not have nearly as much money as he has, and will sick with my vintage TT.
    Can you tell us a little about your cousin system, listening room and musical preferences? Although I find this type of post interesting, without any context they are meaningless.
    DCS Vivaldi 2.0 stack, Soundlab A1 Px's while waiting for the XLF successor, EMT927, SME3012R, ARC Phono 3, Lamm ML1.2 Ref, Lamm L2ref, Stealth Dream speaker , Crystal Dreamline ICs, TA XL digital, TA XL gen V power cables, CenterStage footers and Nordost Qkore8's!

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    My cousin has had just about every vintage table mentioned in this thread, refurbished and mounted in various plinths. He must have gone through 7 tables in the last 2 years, and more before that. Idlers, DD's, belts etc. Several EMT, a Garard, Linn, SP10, and more I can't remember. I've heard every one for extended listening sessions. Some of you may have purchased some of his, or sold them to him.

    And none of them, and he agrees, have come close to the Kronos PRO he bought a couple of months ago.

    I, on the other hand, do not have nearly as much money as he has, and will sick with my vintage TT.

    Does your cousin have multiple TTs at his place now?
    Audition recordings: Zero Distortion Link; Reference Components: Zero Distortion Link; Own: Lampi GG One-day-to-get: Apogee Scintilla, or a horn (with Tenor 75 OTL ), Preamp to be fit in to suit the gain and drive the power amp. Analog: TBD

  10. #90
    Addicted to Best! Harlequin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bonzo75 View Post
    Does your cousin have multiple TTs at his place now?
    For Gods Sake Say No

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