Apogee vs Electrostatic

wisnon · Oct 30, 2017

morricab said:
What do you mean by input speed? The input is an electrical signal...I don't see how the according can move faster than electrons!

The intake speed of air is factor of one, the output speed is a factor of ~5x. This is mechanical, not electrical.
Note that the big Heil driver whose picture I posted has a freq. response from 650hz to 23Khz, with significant energy down to 400hz! Careful, speed kills...LoL

All explained at: http://precide.ch/eng/eheil/eheildetails.htm

"The unique design feature of the OSKAR A.V.T. which distinguishes it from all other speakers is an extremely lightweight diaphragm, folded into a number of accordion-like pleats to which aluminium foil strips are bonded. The Diaphragm is mounted in an intense magnetic field and a music signal is applied to the aluminum strips.

This causes the pleats to alternately expand and contract in a bellows-like manner in conformance with the music signal forcing air under pressure out of the pleats and sucking the air in on the other side, the airmovement is 5 times bigger than the movement of the membrane, therefore also the velocity must be 5 time bigger.The total moving mass is approx. 1 gram, we have therefore an almost perfect transducer system. This principle can be demonstrated very simply by taking a sheet of DIN A 4 paper with a surface of 616 cm2, folding it in the center lengthwise and bending the long edges together to form an opening of 5 cm on the one side. We imagine, that the upper and lower part of the structure is closed and move each side 2.5 cm together. With a frontal surface of 140 cm2, we have now moved 770 ccm of air, compared with the 350 ccm of air moved by a flat diaphragm. Our transformation is now 1:2.2, by making the triangle (top view) a square form, we doubled the transformation to 1:4.4 The selected transformation ratio with the Oskar A.V.T. is 1:5.3.

Unlike conventional speakers, whose diaphragms move air only in a direct proportion to their own movement with the inherent inertia, the A.V.T. multiplies (transforms) the Air Velocity by a factor of 5.3 (with a total mass of less than 1 gramm) and is, therefore, appropriately called an “AIR VELOCITY TRANSFORMER.”

Dr. Oskar Heil, noted physisist and inventor of the Field Effect Transistor, began his research into loudspeaker design, not with abstract theory of how a loudspeaker should work, but with a study of the peculiarities of the human listening aparatus. The result of this intensive year-long research program led to his discovery of the principle on which the Oskar Air Velocity Transformer is based. By applying this principle to the design of a loudspeaker diaphragm, he was able to achieve a revolutionary breakthrough in solving the fundamental problems of diaphragm mass, inertia and self resonance. In the following, we describe the results of Dr. Heils research and how it led to the development of the Heil Air Motion Transformer speaker.

gian60 · Oct 30, 2017

Dear Awsmone
I was jocking,I know
I also had when I was 18 years old an Australian girlfriend very nice and sweet
My son study economy in Milan and is on New Zeland 6 months in Victoria university in Wellington
After finish last exam in 14 November will go with friends 29 days tomorrow visit the beautiful Australia

bonzo75 · Oct 30, 2017

gian60 said:
Dear Awsmone
I was jocking,I know
I also had when I was 18 years old an Australian girlfriend very nice and sweet
My son study economy in Milan and is on New Zeland 6 months in Victoria university in Wellington
After finish last exam in 14 November will go with friends 29 days tomorrow visit the beautiful Australia

Gian, back then did you change girlfriends as much as you change cartridges now

wisnon · Oct 30, 2017

hahahaha.

Low blow Ked. Good thing Gian can take a joke.

gian60 · Oct 30, 2017

Dear Bonzo
When I was young I change girl because no money for cartridge
Now some money for cartridge but I am 57 and girl don't want me
Strange the life

Big Dog RJ · Oct 30, 2017

ok just finished the gym, all showered & ready for the night until I saw Awsmone sending in the doggie catchers... c'mon Awsmone, once in awhile can't we act like a loose roo on rafters mate? why so serious, oh yeah you're in exciting Canberra... and you call me crazy, aren't you the one who uses 5 subs with the CLX's? What's the 5th one for? is that the one on the roof...
btw the only TRUE Australian is and will always be the Aboriginal people. don't even get me started on this mate. The rest arrived here on boat killed many Aborigines and stole from them including their own children. it's not even funny any more.
take a load off, and chill mate.

Gian: there you are! what a beautiful thread! it's going really well and I have learned so much! yes we are all crazy- woof woof! I have rabies at moment with a killer bite!
This is a beautiful country way better than NZ but the All Blacks are the best, just like the CLX's mate! tell your tell your son to visit Canberra, if he's looking forward to early retirement. The last time I visited Canberra I thought I was in a funeral march...

Morricab: thanks for your message mate, points noted. btw if I do ever have a problem with my ML's , one thing for sure is I won't be talking to you mate, I'll be calling up Audio Active (the sole importer/distributor) for Martin Logan, and their level of service is top notch, unlike Quad. so all the best and I'm enjoying my "inferior stats" very much!

Bonzo: just for the record, yes agreed Apogee's are one of a kind, I know because we had the Diva's for many years and actually lived with them, unlike many on this forum who have never even owned CLX's or Apogee's, but claim to be experts in consulting what sounds best... go figure!
like a said, at the time which was nearly two decades ago, the Apogee system we had was probably the best we owned and it was the bench mark for many transducers that came our way. Therefore it was a true reference system.
due to the bad service experience we had, multiple issues being located on a tiny island without a paddle didn't help either to acquire parts, let alone reliable techies...
Therefore, for me moving fwds with all my other priorities (although having the means for Apogee's) and keeping in mind the logistics involved in case of service, which will occur at some point, I sincerely prefer if the brand representative was actually based in Melbourne Victoria and not somewhere up state.
with that in mind, excellent service people to deal with plus a great all round dealer chap to correspond with, at this point in time, my reference transducers will be the CLX's.

Now that we have all agreed on that topic, a very good night to all and the sweetest of dreams...
and sorry if I offended anyone, that was not my intention just being a puppy once in awhile... woof!
RJ

Argonaut · Oct 30, 2017

awsmone said:
On another note, I think the topic should be changed to Apogee and electrostatics , as most electrostatic owners also admire or have had Apogee, myself included, the title is a dichotomy which doesn’t reflect most people’s opunions ...

I quite agree....Both topologies have their comparative strengths and weaknesses, as do ALL transducers to a varying degree, irrespective of design construction and price.

On this particular discussion with regard to purely panel transducers, for my part, were an OP to quantify the question with " my main genre predilection being Rock, Large Scale Classical, Big Band Jazz etc.etc then I would most likely recommend Apogee re- built Duetta Sig, Scintilla or Full Range.

Conversely, were the genres of choice in the main to be mid to small ensemble or solo Classical, particularly Cello through to Violin and higher woodwind, Similar sized Jazz ensemble, Crooner-Singer Songwriter etc.etc, then I would recommend Martin Logan CLX.

That said, both topologies make a pretty good stab at all the genres that I have mentioned in a game of Sonic Swings and Roundabouts, perhaps with the exception of purely Organ Works in the case of CLX.

These XXXXXX V's XXXXXX debates rarely end well.....Reminding me more of Godzilla V's King Kong.

Big Dog RJ · Oct 30, 2017

ah Harly mate, I was wondering where you at bro?
with that one Godzila vs King ko, I know how it ends. you see after a tremendous massive monumental eppic battle, g-zila manages to throw a banana at kk and guess what? all monkeys love bananas right?
kk dies of food poisoning! bad banana mate, and that's all she wrote!

c'mon mate! The CLX'S are right up there, you and I both know this. if you were to try your Arc ref system on Apogee's, they would sound incredible but on the CLX'S the sound is far more natural, and many cannot adjust to this more natural utterly transparent sound, simply because they're used to artificial bass and so add subs and anything that makes the floor rumble. if the floor don't rumble then your speakers can't reproduce bass...
I'm off to bed mate, good night all.

Jeffy · Oct 30, 2017

I never liked the sound of any speaker using the Heil tweeter. I could always hear it and it was always bright.

Tango · Oct 30, 2017

gian60 said:
Dear Bonzo
When I was young I change girl because no money for cartridge
Now some money for cartridge but I am 57 and girl don't want me
Strange the life

57 with money but no women want you there. Ladyboys will love you here Gian.

wisnon · Oct 30, 2017

Jeffy said:
I never liked the sound of any speaker using the Heil tweeter. I could always hear it and it was always bright.

There are Heils and there are Heils!
ESS is VERY different to Oskar Heil.

The JETs and other brands showing up since the patent expired are very different...different materials, different implémentations, different X-overs, etc.

Bright? That is the very opposite of my experience with open-baffle Heil implementation. Try natural and airy! LoL

=================================

Ivor Humphreys Hi-FiNews JANUARY 2005 -Syrinx model

.............'Polite' is a word that too easily damns with faint praise, and in the first few moments of listening to these speakers I did wonder if it was appropriate in just that way. This is a sound not unlike that of the Quad ESL-63 - so clean and seamless in the HF as to seem almost subdued, until you realise that what is missing is the artificial edge imparted by so many conventional tweeters, even today.

..........This aria for soprano, flute, lute, continuo and strings has all that is required to worry a mid/HF driver but the AMT conveyed it with a seamless grace, separating the bow on string noise from the notes themselves, responding to the 'chuff' start of each note on the baroque flute, the finger-work on the lute and to the fine, sibilant detail in the voice. There was nothing in this presentation for the ear to query. It was convincing in every regard.

Sound 3/90 The Heil A.M.T. Kithara presents the trumpets with a fantastic brilliance and without any unnatural harshness in the listing room. A special mentioning has to be made of the warm and natural reproduction of the strings. The voice-reproduction possesses a warm and clean sound timbre.

sound 1/96 Violins, Violas and Cellos are reproduced with unbelievable sound timbre and extraordinary details. No harsh or grubby sound gets on your nerves. Also, the sound is not attached to the boxes, but floats in the room. Not only small ensembles, also large sound bodies are reproduced phenomenal.

Alta Fedelt… 9/95 TESTS.....We find ourselves in front of a speaker of great class, characterised with a reproduction of music of the best we have ever heard. Its Terrain is certainly the acoustical music and not the "Hurricanes". One has to remember, that the Kithara shows all the defects in the chain of amplifier or sources. The Kithara is easy to drive, but at the same time difficult to cheat.

ULTRA HIGH FIDELITY Magazine 51 Canada Dec. 1999 ---
Albert Simon....
I don't say it often and I never say it lightly: at their current price, grab them! And then take a couple of days off.
I don't have too many listening notes. I just couldn't write much while the music played. There was something so right about the sound that I just wanted to stop thinking, drop everything and listen.
The music filled the room effortlessly with a rich, natural sound and nothing remained hidden in the clear rendition of familiar pieces. Nothing was artificially emphasised either or pushed forward. And, just as actually happens in a live performance, when musicians played louder the sound just swelled and filled more space.
Instrumental timbres and voices were accurately rendered and each distinctly heard through the complex yet transparent textures. What a treat!
Their lack of emphasis of certain sounds kept the field slightly drawn back and, consequently, seemed to create less depth than the reference. I still preferred them because music seemed more natural.

Gerard Rejskind I know you've figured it out: I liked these Oskars.
This test session reminded :me of something I already knew: conventional tweeters, even the best ones, don't work right. They all have resonances right in the audible range. Good designers work damp the resonances, so that the speaker stop resonating as quickly as possible, but the anomalies are there, and you always hear them.
So what you notice with the Oskar is what isn't there. No peaks, no valleys, no unwelcome shrillness or artificial "detail." It's like what you notice when you take off a pair of cheap shoes: it doesn't hurt anymore.
I have in the past been accused of being against innovative speaker technologies. Not guilty, you're Honour. But innovation isn't enough. Any new technology is a wild beast that needs taming. Oskar has finally done what I had hoped someone would do: place this great little invention in a speaker worthy of it. Nice work!

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/ Swiss Air Motion . It is that lack of a mechanical origin to the sound that makes it work so well. Alice in Chains and Tom Waits by contrast sounded emasculated, although the warmth and grace of the Aulos still proved impressive even in this much raunchier material.

It must already be clear that the Aulos is refined beyond its station in life. It has an open, singing quality that unsurprisingly works brilliantly with recorded vocal material, and again there is that articulation, of everything happening in step, which is very different from the slightly dislocated feel that is a common experience, in one way or another, even with quite costly loudspeakers. The obverse of this coin is that the Aulos is not as obviously detailed as some. There is likely to be some foundation to this beyond the inherent smoothness and freedom from audio band resonances, and my guess is that there is some rolling away in output towards 20kHz.

ddk · Oct 30, 2017

Tango said:
57 with money but no women want you there. Ladyboys will love you here Gian.

Not sure if he’s familiar with Katoys they go by a different name in Italy

!

david

gian60 · Oct 30, 2017

I don't know what is Katoys

I already have one wife that often claim,i don't need another one,
then to spend a lot of money for another woman i prefer to buy a Soundsmith Straigauge

wisnon · Oct 30, 2017

gian60 said:
I don't know what is Katoys

I already have one wife that often claim,i don't need another one,
then to spend a lot of money for another woman i prefer to buy a Soundsmith Straigauge

You wife is likely most jealous of your SYSTEM. Stella the Stereo. LoL

Zero000 · Oct 30, 2017

wisnon said:
There are Heils and there are Heils!
ESS is VERY different to Oskar Heil.

I have a Heil implementation in some Mark & Daniel monitors and I think it is a good drive unit - amazing off axis TBH - the dispersion is excellent and very even when way off centre or just generally moving about.

Big Dog RJ · Oct 31, 2017

Gentlemen, audiophiles, fellow enthusiasts and maties, greetings from down unda once again;

Some good news and this message is specially for you guys: Gian (who started this thread, btw it's a good thread after all since I'm also learning), Harly (who owns CLX's) Bonzo (who wants to get or is thinking of Apogee's) User211 (whom if I'm correct, also owns Apogee's) and any other panel fans whom I may have missed...

This arvo, I finally managed to get through to my assistant dealer mate, who happens to own Apogee's. He has agreed to arrange a time for me to listen! His place is not too far from my work base, therefore probably either on Sun or Tues night I will be there. I am very excited about this particular audition, as it will clear a lot of things for me, and perhaps even aid in my future decisions.

There are a number of points he covered:
1. these are not the Duetta signatures as I had thought, these are some other version, not sure which one until I see them.
2. heavily modified supports at the back, making the whole speaker firmly planted to floor, some sort of anchors have been used here.
3. fully modified Sumo amps (monoblocks with upgraded caps, power supply and output stage, delivering close to 800w/ch AB & 150w pure class A switchable.
4. the amps have two types of outputs- 1 for high voltage & 2 for high current- with one of these combinations, it can deliver 150w Class A according to him (I remember seeing a similar topology on the Carver Sunfire amp which was capable of running 300w & 100 something into Class A, or something like that...)
5. Most of the caps have been upgraded with Hovland (I think I misspelled that) and a high grade Japanese brand called KSL. He claims these are the same caps used in Kondo amplifiers and has something to do with the full bass control and recovery to peak power.

He went on to say that these mods were all done in-house, also has been in touch with Graz in Qld. has some sort of arrangement where you don't need to send across the full speakers if there was a problem. Rather Graz will talk you through it and the user is able to take out particular parts of the ribbon elements required for service & ship across. I was not too sure about this, since this chap is also the main tech for Rega TT's and knows what he's doing, therefore whether a normal person with average tech skills could do this operation not sure...
I was having trouble myself replacing maggie tweeter elements! what a stable & delicate hand you need when replacing that dam tweeter!

He claims that the Sumo amps are all but Sumo on the inside- they are more closer to the Nelson Pass circuit using top grade Kondo parts & similar kinds of silver wiring... He finds that the overall control factor and drive of the full frequency spectrum is far superior to his other tube monoblocks, which he rarely listens to. I asked what were these, and to learn they were VAC amps! Some top end monoblocks no longer in production, fitted with 6550C's as the choice of output tubes. He was trying to re-do the circuit to fit in KT150's but hasn't had the time since he's inundated with re-calibrating Michell Gyrodecks and Rega's...

I mentioned that I would prefer to listen to Apogee's with tubes rather than SS but claims that I am missing out on a huge pristine factor that only Apogee's could deliver, and that was its sheer dynamism on a real scale. Ok, I can put up with that, so lets see how this goes. I will report back in due course, and many thanks to all for at least pushing me to venture back into Apogee's, at least it's a start to something that I was quite used to... many years ago in a galaxy far far away...

Although we did own them at point, that was so long ago, I probably have forgotten their true sound. Recently I did listen to a pair of older Duetta Sigs modified by Graz, they were quite wonderful in the bass, and midrannge especially on piano. They sounded fuller and deeper with added sense of weight and heft factor, unlike a stat. However, I found the full midrange to be more open on stats, and highs smoother or more airy. I guess this also has a lot to do with the amps driving them and in various configs, be it stereo/mono/bi-amped so on...
The main amp used on those was a Mac MC452, and it was a superb sound indeed I must say. Just as a personal preference, I'm a big fan and very passionate about the way the CLX's reproduce the full spectrum. That sort of linear response, agility and articulation is also superb, something that I could live with both for sure.

As a closing comment, I must respect all you chaps one way or the other, since we are panel lovers. I noticed that at one point in time, we all owned or did own panels. Whether that may be ribbons or stats, they are superb transducers no doubt.

Having said that, I will also be making an audition of the MG3.7i once again, since John Hall has confirmed he would be available in about a month's time. He has now parted with his Ref75 and is now using the Magtech amp, claims that this is a world apart from tubes and the Magtech is marvelous with his 3.7i's. I also think maggies are true value for money, for what they can deliver, and they deliver just that very well indeed!

Will be in touch, and have a good one maties,
Cheers, RJ

marty · Oct 31, 2017

gian60 said:
Dear Bonzo
When I was young I change girl because no money for cartridge
Now some money for cartridge but I am 57 and girl don't want me
Strange the life

best WBF post of the year

NorthStar · Oct 31, 2017

"Dear Bonzo
When I was young I change girl because no money for cartridge
Now some money for cartridge but I am 57 and girl don't want me
Strange the life."

:b

Zero000 · Oct 31, 2017

Big Dog RJ said:
Gentlemen, audiophiles, fellow enthusiasts and maties, greetings from down unda once again;

Some good news and this message is specially for you guys: Gian (who started this thread, btw it's a good thread after all since I'm also learning), Harly (who owns CLX's) Bonzo (who wants to get or is thinking of Apogee's) User211 (whom if I'm correct, also owns Apogee's) and any other panel fans whom I may have missed...

This arvo, I finally managed to get through to my assistant dealer mate, who happens to own Apogee's. He has agreed to arrange a time for me to listen! His place is not too far from my work base, therefore probably either on Sun or Tues night I will be there. I am very excited about this particular audition, as it will clear a lot of things for me, and perhaps even aid in my future decisions.

There are a number of points he covered:
1. these are not the Duetta signatures as I had thought, these are some other version, not sure which one until I see them.
2. heavily modified supports at the back, making the whole speaker firmly planted to floor, some sort of anchors have been used here.
3. fully modified Sumo amps (monoblocks with upgraded caps, power supply and output stage, delivering close to 800w/ch AB & 150w pure class A switchable.
4. the amps have two types of outputs- 1 for high voltage & 2 for high current- with one of these combinations, it can deliver 150w Class A according to him (I remember seeing a similar topology on the Carver Sunfire amp which was capable of running 300w & 100 something into Class A, or something like that...)
5. Most of the caps have been upgraded with Hovland (I think I misspelled that) and a high grade Japanese brand called KSL. He claims these are the same caps used in Kondo amplifiers and has something to do with the full bass control and recovery to peak power.

He went on to say that these mods were all done in-house, also has been in touch with Graz in Qld. has some sort of arrangement where you don't need to send across the full speakers if there was a problem. Rather Graz will talk you through it and the user is able to take out particular parts of the ribbon elements required for service & ship across. I was not too sure about this, since this chap is also the main tech for Rega TT's and knows what he's doing, therefore whether a normal person with average tech skills could do this operation not sure...
I was having trouble myself replacing maggie tweeter elements! what a stable & delicate hand you need when replacing that dam tweeter!

He claims that the Sumo amps are all but Sumo on the inside- they are more closer to the Nelson Pass circuit using top grade Kondo parts & similar kinds of silver wiring... He finds that the overall control factor and drive of the full frequency spectrum is far superior to his other tube monoblocks, which he rarely listens to. I asked what were these, and to learn they were VAC amps! Some top end monoblocks no longer in production, fitted with 6550C's as the choice of output tubes. He was trying to re-do the circuit to fit in KT150's but hasn't had the time since he's inundated with re-calibrating Michell Gyrodecks and Rega's...

I mentioned that I would prefer to listen to Apogee's with tubes rather than SS but claims that I am missing out on a huge pristine factor that only Apogee's could deliver, and that was its sheer dynamism on a real scale. Ok, I can put up with that, so lets see how this goes. I will report back in due course, and many thanks to all for at least pushing me to venture back into Apogee's, at least it's a start to something that I was quite used to... many years ago in a galaxy far far away...

Although we did own them at point, that was so long ago, I probably have forgotten their true sound. Recently I did listen to a pair of older Duetta Sigs modified by Graz, they were quite wonderful in the bass, and midrannge especially on piano. They sounded fuller and deeper with added sense of weight and heft factor, unlike a stat. However, I found the full midrange to be more open on stats, and highs smoother or more airy. I guess this also has a lot to do with the amps driving them and in various configs, be it stereo/mono/bi-amped so on...
The main amp used on those was a Mac MC452, and it was a superb sound indeed I must say. Just as a personal preference, I'm a big fan and very passionate about the way the CLX's reproduce the full spectrum. That sort of linear response, agility and articulation is also superb, something that I could live with both for sure.

As a closing comment, I must respect all you chaps one way or the other, since we are panel lovers. I noticed that at one point in time, we all owned or did own panels. Whether that may be ribbons or stats, they are superb transducers no doubt.

Having said that, I will also be making an audition of the MG3.7i once again, since John Hall has confirmed he would be available in about a month's time. He has now parted with his Ref75 and is now using the Magtech amp, claims that this is a world apart from tubes and the Magtech is marvelous with his 3.7i's. I also think maggies are true value for money, for what they can deliver, and they deliver just that very well indeed!

Will be in touch, and have a good one maties,
Cheers, RJ

Fantastic post and I hope you enjoy the Apogee session whatever they turn out to be.

I have found that a recent change in crossover components and a redesign of the standard Duetta Signature crossover circuit using a crossover simulator has reaped massive rewards in the mid range and treble performance.

As a long time owner of MLs I concur it is easy to get a bit uneasy about the mid range and treble in an Apogee. However, I am certain that this new crossover is better than the Apogee circuit for this model. Why? Because the mids and treble are much smoother than a standard Duetta, without losing any resolution. It does modify the frequency response, but that is absolutely deliberate. One of the problems with this particular model was not only fairly cheap components, but an emphasis in mid range response in the listening position, which is easily measurable with a test mic.

But there's a whole host of other upgrades that can be applied. Hopefully whatever has been done to the pair you listen to has been done well.

I do concur though, tubes all the way on Apogees. Apart from sometimes, when solid state will just blow you over on the right material in a way tubes can never manage.

The trouble with Apogees is they are one of the most revealing speakers ever made. They tell you everything, quite literally. The flaws you hear are correctable downstream and by customisation of the basic designs themselves. The real question is - how dedicated are you?

BobM · Oct 31, 2017

Those of you (us) who have original Apogees are hanging on by a thread. We pamper them to keep them alive and avoid the death knoll of that dreaded buzz, knowing full well that it is inevitable and will begin visiting us soon.

So that means, if you have an Apogee you probably have the updated version with new ribbons manufactured by Graz in Australia.

However ... the old vs new speakers sound different to my ears. I have updated the crossover in my Duetta Sig's, replacing caps and resistors and placing them in an outboard box. It improved the sound but it is still not as tight as a pair with replaced ribbons.

That being said, the sound is still reference quality for me, and I've heard a lot of stat's, horns, cones and etc. speakers. I use a McCormack DNA500 amp (no getting around the need for quality power), but I have tubes in front of it in my preamp. That makes a difference too, I believe.

As for dynamics, I hear it, but it is not the same as with a cone speaker and can never approach a horn, that's why I use a pair of stereo subs to give me some punch that an open baffle ribbon cannot produce (and to help preserve my ribbons I cut the bottom end at about 80Hz).

As for setup, yes, that last quarter inch makes a difference. Good setup is not good enough. You need to be neurotic, but it will pay off. And they are a one person speaker. Don;t get me wrong, they sound great off axis, but they will make you melt when you are in the sweet spot.

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