Apogee vs Electrostatic

gian60 · Oct 27, 2017

I know here there are fan of Apogee like Ked and others but no of electrostatic speaker
I tell my experience about it
In 1980 about I bought Duetta and became crazy ti use,I had Robertson amp and then Krell Kma 100
Sound and bass was good but little dark and sound in the speaker
That I bought Martil Logan CLS,not very good bass but the other things much better for me
One my friend had Diva with Rowland M7,same like my experience,with Diva much better than Duetta,but then change with Soundlab A1 and sound was more coherent and transparent
Pepe57 had full range with Krell kma 200 reference on bass,Nadia 500 on mid and Jadis 200 on tweeter
Very good but always the sound was difficult to go out from the speaker
Than he bought Tolteque Electrostatic and was more happy
So I listen a lot of good experience here of Apogee restored but no one of Electrostatic speaker
Regards

Argonaut · Oct 27, 2017

Is that a Can Of Worms I hear opening

gilles13 · Oct 27, 2017

Apogee are special. With them you have slam, a dynamic that you can'get even with tolteque that I know. They are darker, as a report on stereophile said in the same time they reviewed the stage, but as they said with this type of loudspeaker you .can listen for hours. Since that time digital has improved.
In fact it depends on your taste. Apogee has this special quality. There are a lot of electrostic loudspeakers which have better high but they are differents

murphys33 · Oct 27, 2017

Clarysis audio has speakers modelled after the apogees.

Ron Resnick · Oct 28, 2017

Dear Gian,

I started with Magnepan MG-IIIAs, and then switched to the Martin-Logan Monolith II and then the Monolith III. I then got Martin-Logan Prodgys which I loved for 18 years. (I am not the only person who thinks the Prodigy did some good things the later Summit did not quite match.)

The CLS and the CLX never did it for me, but our very own Big Dog ("Woof Woof") RJ is a big fan of the CLXArt.

If you want to get a sense of current state of the art electrostatic loudspeakers I have to fairly insist that you listen to MartinLogan Neoliths 1) driven by high-power tubes (any high-power tubes will do), and 2) playing vinyl or tape.

In fairness, and in the interests of full disclosure, I will stipulate that the Neolith has proven to be a controversial loudspeaker, but I believe that it has often been poorly matched with solid-state amps (not with Vitus, Pass, or Gryphon) in audio show exhibits and dealer demonstrations.

I was planning to get the Neolith until I heard the Gryphon Pendragons. I am sure that Divas and Full Ranges restored by Henk (in The Netherlands) or TSW (in Nevada, USA) would sound amazing.

---------

What do you mean that in the Pepe57 system the sound did not come out of the speaker?

bonzo75 · Oct 28, 2017

I think he means the sound stayed more towards the speaker.

I think that is because Jadis cannot be used on full ranges.

gian60 · Oct 28, 2017

We also tried with full range krell reference 200 on bass and Mark levinson 20 on mid high

Big Dog RJ · Oct 28, 2017

Sorry no offense but I couldn't reall gather what the issue is here... is it that no one likes stats? or that everyone likes Apogee's and no one is making much noise about stats... I couldn't gather head or tail of this message.

Anyway, just as a thoughtful reply Gian60-

please read my posts on the Martin Logan CLX Art- it was one of the most influential discussions and is still going on... I think if I'm correct, even you've posted your message somewhere there along with your photo of your system...

Apart from, when I used to co-own an audio dealership dating back in the early 90's, our main system consisted of Magnepan's, Apogee's and the CLS along with a few Sequels and one Monolith, that's right we managed to sell only one in that tiny island of Colombo. The price of stats were far more expensive than ribbons, specially maggies, therefore it was much easier to sell maggies. We also sold a few Quad 63's but they didn't last too long in tropics...

My father's system comprised of the mighty Diva's and went through numerous repairs. We finally got the CLS and this was our reference system for many years driven with big Manley/VTL 350 monoblocks. This system was superb! and still to this dat afyer nearly 20 years, I have yet to come across a system that can reproduce that!

The only one that does is the current model of the CLX Art. Driven with the right pre-power combination, it is very much at the top of SOTA! Check with Harly ( harlequin) he is using a full ARC ref series pre-power combination on his CLX's and I think I do know what they probably sound like- awesome!

Fast fwd those 20 years, and now I'm using the ML Ethos with CJ amplifiers, that is another awesome sound. So to answer your question... Please refer to Ron's message, I think it's quite self explanatory.

Apart from that, I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers but I really cannot understand what you are trying to say in your message. is it a complaint or is it an issue you are having with electrostat fans?
RJ

gian60 · Oct 28, 2017

I am sorry for my bad english and sometimes i cannot explain my ideas.
I love electrostatic speaker,i had mid/high RTR,Quad 57,Quad 63,Audiostatic 300,ML CLS,Acoustat 2+2,SoundLab A1 plus mono sub B1

I started this thread to tell that now there are a lot of fan like Ked and others of new Apogee restored in Holland or Australia
I posted my experience of 25 years ago with Apogee mine and of my 2 friends and that all we 3 sold Apogee to buy electrostatic speaker

The new Apogee restored i never listen

bonzo75 · Oct 28, 2017

gian60 said:
I am sorry for my bad english and sometimes i cannot explain my ideas.
I love electrostatic speaker,i had mid/high RTR,Quad 57,Quad 63,Audiostatic 300,ML CLS,Acoustat 2+2,SoundLab A1 plus mono sub B1

I started this thread to tell that now there are a lot of fan like Ked and others of new Apogee restored in Holland or Australia
I posted my experience of 25 years ago with Apogee mine and of my 2 friends and that all we 3 sold Apogee to buy electrostatic speaker

The new Apogee restored i never listen

Gian, User211 and I owned Martin Logans, there is another restored Diva owner here who owned Soundlabs. It goes both ways. There are many ex-electrostat owners owning apogee today, and vice versa. The thing is, Apogees have the highest set up variance among speakers I have heard, some sound downright awful and when right they are unbeatable except by special horns like Pietro's which produce music in a different way. I did not like apogees for a couple of years. In fact I had planned my first visit to Christoph to listen to his apogee, and cancelled it, because I heard another Scintilla then which was highly disappointing. A few months later I fell in love with a Full Range, Grands and have since been in love. I have heard one excellent Duetta system and one excellent Scintilla system. It all depends on the mods, amplification, and room. But yes, if I had the space and the money I would have a Full Range and a horn. Slightly smaller (yet big) space I would do only a horn. And in a medium room, I could do either Martin Logans modded like UK Paul's or a Duetta or a Scintilla, no horn. But my choice set ends there. I want nothing else.

Argonaut · Oct 28, 2017

bonzo75 said:
The thing is, Apogees have the highest set up variance among speakers I have heard, some sound downright awful and when right they are unbeatable except by special horns like Pietro's which produce music in a different way. I did not like apogees for a couple of years. In fact I had planned my first visit to Christoph to listen to his apogee, and cancelled it, because I heard another Scintilla then which was highly disappointing

Kedar...I would propose that the CLX's are an equally problematic transducer to set up any way close to optimally, excuse the cut n paste from a responce that I made on RJ's CLX thread....

"
Interestingly your post highlights the, at times frustrating, at times incredibly rewarding, Chameleon like nature of this transducer, in that the correct or incorrect partnering of source together with Pre/Power amplification may take one on a pilgramege from Hell via Purgatory onto quicksand,to Terra Firma and thence with good fortune, or a good deal of trial and diligence to ones own personal Nirvana and Heaven, not to mention associated cables, fastidious positioning/ orientation and room/ correction.

With so many factors and variables at play It is of no great surprise nor revelation to me at the diversity of comment with reference to the CLX experience from light, bright and reasonably dynamic, through to astonishingly life like reproduction true to the quality of the recording with pin point accuracy with a faithful rendition of tonality /texture and with impressive enough dynamics for an electrostat, even without sub woofer augmentation.

With the introduction of ML's latest stator technology I find the CLX to be a truely and audibly transparent blank canvas upon which one may paint whatever picture one may desire "

gilles13 · Oct 28, 2017

Even if you are not a golden ear you can immediately hear the smallest change in your system, banana plug, power plug...so apogee are very system dependant. But I totally agree that you can prefer stats, it 's just different.
Generally apogee are said to be quite reliable.

bonzo75 · Oct 28, 2017

I see that awsmone and Kosta both have the CLX in a very big room. I haven't seen a big difference in scale in the MLs as one moves from Spires to CLX. Yes details improve, bass integration style differs, but in Apogee the difference in scale as you move from duetta upwards is quite big.

Big Dog RJ · Oct 28, 2017

Apogee's reliable... yea right! The glorious Diva's fell apart in the tropics like a cheese toast sandwich in the micro! way too many failures mate and so were the Quads. The one and only panel that survived the test of time, roughly 3 years before the tweeter elements fell apart, were the maggies. nothing to say or admire in the build quality of maggies vs the others but even though maggies had glues, staples and fabric velcro at the back, whatever they did to those MGIIIa, 3.3/r & 3.5/r of which we sold quite a many, they all outlasted the Quads & Apogee's.

No doubt ribbons are superb transducers in an excellent setup, with the right amplification, the beauty of maggies are with any decent amp, they sound great, and with top line gear they sound incredible! The 3.7i & 20.7 come to mind.

The CLX and stats are not for everyone, they are in fact a huge pain in the butt to get right, let alone match well with just about entry level gear. even the ML dealer (one of the dealers) does not have a clue on how to make the CLX's sing he strongly claims that tube amps are low ouput, sluggish, and don't have the top end to drive stats properly... whatever. I gave another person with similar religious beliefs a demo with my cj gear and the Ethos; after he recovered from a slight faint, he actually sold his highly regarded Accuphase ss amp.

Again tubes aren't for everyone either, and of course it's a personal preference Gian. BTW you don't have to apologize for the English mate. come over to Aussie land mate and you won't be able to understand half of what & how we converse here. only the educated are easy to talk to. The rest are bogan maitey! me's gotta hit the sac to rest up for a pump session at gym in the arvo miiite! cheers miiite
oh by the way, yes the CLX's properly set up with top notch amplification and the best of phono and digital playback on a realist scale of expenditure... simply is the best!
cheers miiite! RJ

bonzo75 · Oct 28, 2017

Hi big Dog, apogee ribbons are very reliable and the old ones once replaced have been lasting for over a decade easy if not more. Stats do fail, Quads and Logans and have to be replaced.

Big Dog RJ · Oct 28, 2017

yes agreed Bonz to certain point.
I have had my fair share of panel failures, needless to say the biggest factor was to find someone who actually knew what they were doing...

sure ribbons are good to go when they are replaced but again in tropical climates forget it! we're talking a humidity level in the upper 90's mate. During the monsoons it reaches close to 98%- that's nearly water!

anything with heat generated from magnets and moving coils, fail like butter melting on a hor plate. I remember this one time where we virtually saw a pair of Celestions imported all the way down from England warp its entire cabinetry , it was so warped even the people at Celestion could not believe it.

anyway, I'm in a different country now, basically a different planet and over here we don't have access to Henk in Holl & Graz sunny Q-land to just drop in & restore Apogee's. it takes a bit more effort and wise decisions than that mate.

This is one of the reasons I went with ML because they have an outstanding service centre here and with ML's newer panels, there's nothing to repair just replace the entire panel. I've seen it done right in front of me and on a sober day I can do this myself, provided I have the necessary parts. but replacement and repairs on Apogee's are a whole different ball game... This is serious stuff and you/techie has to know for sure what you are doing/dealing with.

Quads on the other hand, no point talking. Unfortunately the chaps over here have no clue / zero knowledge on Quad panel & electronic repairs. This is why the famous John Hall ends up repairing nearly every Quad that fails!

back in home town, not only was the climate a nightmare, so was the techie!
The only guy who did have some knowledge passed away few years ago and he was known as the guru of panel speakers. sadly the high end industry in audio doesn't exist back there any much longer. people with that kind of money prefer to buy Porsche's & Ferrari's , easier to show off...
fancy that eh?
Cheers mate, have a good one.
RJ

Zero000 · Oct 29, 2017

I raised this thread a while ago to try and determine ML panel reliability. It isn't great, I went through some changes in 17 years using 5 sets of panels in total.

Worse than that, when replacing a set of Aerius panels, I ended up installing 3 sets when sourcing a new set as the first 2 sets were duff.

The trouble with MLs is the coated membrane is directly exposed to the air and sunlight, and that doesn't do it any longevity favours.

That said, Apogees fail too, but they rely on magnetic field and current running through a foil, making them more immune to direct expose to the elements.

There's no doubt in my mind that I prefer my Apogee Duetta set up to my old Ascent/Descent combo by a margin.

There's also no doubt in my mind that you could build a Duetta whose performance is considerably above the high spec pair I own. I know exactly what I'd do to make an absolutely bloody killer pair!

morricab · Oct 29, 2017

The only truly reliable planar speakers are from Acoustat. Original, unmodified specimens are out there still in the thousands in perfect working condition that are in the 40 year old range. Even the oldest, direct drive models work fine, although the amps need refurbishment...not surprising with caps at high temperatures (they are OTLs). MLs fail, Apogees fail, Maggies fail, Soundlabs fail, Audiostatics fail. Only Acoustats are really reliable...and they sound very good too. When I say fail, I mean within 20 years or so.

Empirical Audio · Oct 29, 2017

I have had good ribbons for about 8 years, just replaced with Vapor Nimbus, because its more efficient and have a smaller tweeter. The imaging is unsurpassed on the ribbons. Never found anything better for imaging, particularly standing or off-axis.

I've listened to many electrostatics in showrooms and at 15 years of shows. They certainly render the detail nicely, but always disappointed me for dynamics, slam factor.
Even ribbons can have this problem. When I first got my ribbons, they did not have the slam factor and I almost sold them. I eventually decided that it was the crossover at fault, so I threw out the crossovers, wiring and connectors and started from scratch. After about $1500 in a new board, the best crossover components and tuning the crossover (every ribbon has a resonance, so there is a notch filter at some frequency), replacing the wiring with silver-plated solid copper with Teflon insulation and remounting better connectors, these ribbons were finally reference quality. I could properly evaluate my DAC SQ with them. They also drove to loud volumes using my 30W SET tube monoblocks. I now have these for sale at a steal. Who ever gets them will be very lucky:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=151272.0

Moral of the story: with full-range ribbons in particular, the crossover design and component quality is what makes the speaker dynamic. It is possible to get a shock-wave from a ribbon. I've always lived in dry climates however.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

awsmone · Oct 29, 2017

Funny, I almost bought Apogee in 1999 when I first got into Hifi

Ended up with Prodigy and now CLX Art

I think the Apogee has inherent advantage in better bass, especially the big ones

I have owned CLX for 8 years I think

I have struggled to find the best amplifier to my taste

Only recently have I got it to the point I am happy, that’s a long time

I have learnt a lot

Now with the Goldmund and lamm, I get sound which is both accurate, transparent but also meat on the bones and totally accurate

My experience is with the wrong amplifiers, CLX tend to bleach and become top heavy

Only with valves is this problem avoided, as the valves Love the bass panel impedance

I have been discussing with Ked trying the big Apogee, but amps seem to be a problem there also

Till I got the Goldmund I almost got rid of the CLX

I am so glad now I didn’t was a close thing

Apogee vs Electrostatic

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