DACs using dual differential balanced designs - have to be balanced XLR out?

Empirical Audio

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I hear you Steve, I'll give your product serious consideration.
I have to say that Final Drive plus additional pr Sablon Reserva XLR interconnects pretty much doubles outlay on basic cost of my dac of choice.

Capacitance per unit length is a prime consideration for DAC to preamp or amp. DAC output impedance is usually higher, so the analog cables capacitance can be a factor. I recommend 10pF/foot or less. The cables I used to sell were 3.8pF/foot.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Uk Paul

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Stay with your Nat Marc, you have no need to swap..
 

spiritofmusic

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Oh, I intend to Paul.
The q is that it seems very few dacs work best single ended.
The Denafrips Terminator doesn't appear to, Aqua Formula neither.
Even GG is best balanced, and I'm not a fan of tubed dacs.
 

bonzo75

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Oh, I intend to Paul.
The q is that it seems very few dacs work best single ended.
The Denafrips Terminator doesn't appear to, Aqua Formula neither.
Even GG is best balanced, and I'm not a fan of tubed dacs.

My SE GG sounded better than a balanced GG in the Lampi factory with Lukasz next to me. There is much more than simplifying it so, or trying to research this way. How many people here have actually compared various dacs in SE to their balanced in both balanced and SE system to back their technical claims do you think?
 

Mike Lavigne

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balanced or SE with a dac is not a simple question. with my MSB Select II, I compared the balanced output module to the SE/RCA module and preferred the RCA module.

in the case of the Aqua Formula dac, and the Nagra HD dac, both those dacs had transformers on their XLR outputs which reduced digital noise into the analog outputs, so the balanced/XLR in both cases were quite a bit better.....in my system.

I never compared the SE GG to the balanced GG; but would expect to prefer the SE.

you would need to get pretty deep to establish exactly what is doing what is doing what in terms of either SE or XLR output performace on a dac. is it the dac topography? is it the transformer? is it the analog output section?

in general I prefer SE circuits to balanced in terms of preamps and amps. just less circuits and parts in the signal path.
 
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Empirical Audio

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Oh, I intend to Paul.
The q is that it seems very few dacs work best single ended.
The Denafrips Terminator doesn't appear to, Aqua Formula neither.
Even GG is best balanced, and I'm not a fan of tubed dacs.

In that case, how about these:

https://www.audiostream.com/content/holo-audio-spring-dac-level-3-kitsune-tuned-edition

https://www.audiostream.com/content/ta-dac-8

https://www.audiostream.com/content/merging-technologies-nadac-1 - you get Ethernet input

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

spiritofmusic

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Steve, are you stating categorically that these three dacs sound superior, or at least as good, on RCA Out compared to XLR Out?
Indeed, that they're designed to primarily be used RCA Out?
 

Empirical Audio

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Steve, are you stating categorically that these three dacs sound superior, or at least as good, on RCA Out compared to XLR Out?
Indeed, that they're designed to primarily be used RCA Out?

I believe so. Read the reviews.

The Light Harmonic Da Vinci might be a good choice too if you can find reviews.

Steve N.
 
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microstrip

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(...) in the case of the Aqua Formula dac, and the Nagra HD dac, both those dacs had transformers on their XLR outputs which reduced digital noise into the analog outputs, so the balanced/XLR in both cases were quite a bit better.....in my system. (...)

Unless we know the exact topology of the DAC we can not risk any guesses or generalizations. Some DACs with XLR also use the transformers to feed the RCA output, reducing the common mode digital noise and power supply noise.

you would need to get pretty deep to establish exactly what is doing what is doing what in terms of either SE or XLR output performace on a dac. is it the dac topography? is it the transformer? is it the analog output section?
(...)

Surely! Simple generalizations are absolutely misleading.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Unless we know the exact topology of the DAC we can not risk any guesses or generalizations. Some DACs with XLR also use the transformers to feed the RCA output, reducing the common mode digital noise and power supply noise.

specifically neither the Formula nor the Nagra HD have transformers on the RCA outputs, and in the case of the Nagra HD, those transformers on the XLR side are (or were) optional and extra cost.

Surely! Simple generalizations are absolutely misleading.

+1. almost always true.
 

Sablon Audio

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What we don’t presently know is whether Marc’s existing Eera cd player is a dual differential design, as it too could also be running sub-optimally using rca output.

Wrt TA / Aqua Formula / Nagra already mentioned (plus Metrum Adagio), I have received a decent level of user feedback that they all work better using their xlr outputs. Clearly this is only half the equation as the topology of the receiving amplifier should also be considered and some of these may be innately single ended designs using transformers which may benefit from galvanic isolation.
 

awsmone

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Hi Marc

It seems we are talking a potential gain of balanced versus SE, versus actual real life performance

If u wish to continue to use your pre which u like the SQ, then u will just be running SE end of story

I have owned a number of DAC and the differences are not always great

Impedance matching and capacitance of cable can make a big difference as well as xlr versus SE

U can always later get a transformer to try
 

bonzo75

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Only the Nat utopia is SE only. All the later Nat pre amps work best in balanced as per Nikic
 

spiritofmusic

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Well Ked, it’s a fantastic preamp, and having heard the Magnetostat at Peters, I’m not sure I’d swap.
I’m only going to risk a dac that is designed to be at least equally as good on RCA Out
Kitsune Holo Springs is in pole position, price good, and reviews favourable.
 

Empirical Audio

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What we don’t presently know is whether Marc’s existing Eera cd player is a dual differential design, as it too could also be running sub-optimally using rca output.

AES/EBU outputs on CD players are usually not "dual differential". They are usually created from the S/PDIF signal by adding another higher voltage stage. This, of course, adds a bit of jitter. I know in my own computer audio converters, the S/PDIF output has lower jitter because of this.

If Marc is using a CD transport to drive this new DAC, I recommend that he investigate reclockers and better S/PDIF coaxial cabling. The Eera player does not buffer the data and reclock it out, but it does have novel methods to reduce vibration in the disk while spinning. This will help with jitter, but IME it will not be enough to really take advantage of what the new DAC can deliver.

I have put rubberized coatings on the top of CD's as well as treating the read surface with a high-quality coating for readability. These definitely reduce jitter, particularly the rubberized coating. However, with a CD transport is it nearly impossible to achieve the low jitter possible with a good reclocker, or better yet with a good USB or network interface driven by a server/computer, unless you care to spend enormous amounts on the CD transport. I would not recommend this.

The main things that usually make a DAC not as good as true analog are (in order of importance):

1) jitter of the applied digital signal
2) poor digital filters

I prefer DAC's without resamplers in them because you are locked forever into the internal clock of these DACs, which can be substandard. Without upsampling in the DAC, one can take advantage of other clocking technologies, such as external reclockers, computer and network audio solutions that lower the jitter more and more over time as technology improves. You can get these benefits without needing to upgrade the DAC. You can find a DAC with a SQ you like and stick with it for the long-term. The imaging, dynamics and clarity will get better and better. I have taken a $300 transport and made it sound like a $5000 transport by adding a reclocker.

Another option is to get a DAC with a modular input structure, like my Overdrive SX. I have done two generations of USB interfaces and now a network interface with the same DAC. The jitter gets lower with each generation. These "modules" can be swapped-in at the factory for the upgrade.

To address the digital filter issue, there are several options:

1) find a DAC that allows one to select the digital filter. This would allow you to select for instance a 192kHz filter when playing 44.1kHz tracks from a disk. This virtually eliminates the effects of the so called "brick-wall" filter at 44.1kHz. SQ will benefit tremendously IME.

2) find a DAC using a NOS or ladder-DAC technology. These are usually older chips or fully custom new designs, like the TotalDAC or some Lampizators. The downside of the older chips, even though they have a very analog sound, is that the usually don't support hi-res above 96kHz and the resolution of HF transients is not as good as more modern D/A chip designs.

3) find a new design that converts everything to DSD format and then does the D/A on that. These often have several options for digital filters, resulting in options for different impulse response as well. If you like this sound, it may be an option for you.

My main point is that selecting a DAC as an upgrade is insufficient. It should also include consideration for future sources and improving the jitter of the source that you already have, namely the CD Transport, as well as consideration of the digital filtering strategy in the DAC. This will insure that you get a significant upgrade for the money spent on the new DAC, and that you are set for the future for SQ improvements as they become available.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

Sablon Audio

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Steve, I think you may have misread my post. The cd player in question has XLR analogue outputs rather than aes / ebu digital ones.
 

Empirical Audio

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Steve, I think you may have misread my post. The cd player in question has XLR analogue outputs rather than aes / ebu digital ones.

But these are not what drives a DAC. I thought we were talking about a new DAC here.....

Steve N.
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Sablon Audio

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But these are not what drives a DAC. I thought we were talking about a new DAC here.....

Steve N.
Empirical Audio

No, I was postulating that Marc’s existing CD player could well be a dual differential design without him knowing. In which case, he likely isn’t realising its full potential despite being very happy with the sound and this concern alone should not be an overriding one for chosing a new dac should he progress his server plans.

As an aside, I have suggested to Marc offline that he investigates getting a digital input added to his CD Player so that he can also use it as a dac for a server. Unfortunately neither the manufacturer nor an aftermarket digital specialist were able to help him.
 

Empirical Audio

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No, I was postulating that Marc’s existing CD player could well be a dual differential design without him knowing. In which case, he likely isn’t realising its full potential despite being very happy with the sound and this concern alone should not be an overriding one for chosing a new dac should he progress his server plans.

As an aside, I have suggested to Marc offline that he investigates getting a digital input added to his CD Player so that he can also use it as a dac for a server. Unfortunately neither the manufacturer nor an aftermarket digital specialist were able to help him.

Not many CD transports have this feature, and I would suspect those that do are probably not the top-tier solution for the money that the OP is looking for. His pre cannot accept balanced analog either.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
 

the sound of Tao

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Marc, you might be getting caught up in a feature that isn’t anywhere near the only determinant in the sound of a dac but is just one of them. I do feel that balanced as an approach leads to certain themes in the nature of the sound of gear which is different again to single ended but clearly this could also be said of whether the dac is ladder resistor based or purely fpga, or sigma delta whatever.

Not sure I’d get lost in it too much and the denafrips may well sound better to you via rca if you prefer single ended generally... and if not maybe the terminator even on single ended may well still sound better than another dac that you end up buying that is single ended only.

The reality is if you insist on buying products that you can’t audition then you might need to give up on hoping for a more guaranteed experience as an outcome and not base it on any one factor.

I wouldn’t panic if someone says a particular piece of gear is better via one output over another. One person’s better is another person’s disappointment.

Maybe rather than getting caught up if something is balanced or whether either single ended or balanced is absolutely better let’s just say thematically different.

So dual differential may have certain sonic traits that more importantly may be defined much better than just saying better and understanding this trait would be helpful but even then there are so many other factors building up the sound of a dac than just this one.

The fact that something is balanced may well change your experience of it in some ways for sure but you can’t read too much into that without understanding how it works in your setup anyway. If you are game enough to be buying gear unheard you can’t really get caught up in too much guessing about how exactly it will ultimately or exactly work out. Other people can’t absolutely tell you how much you will like it or how it will sound in your system.

I prefer single ended as a guide in my setup but have heard a balanced dac that I didn’t enjoy so much in my system sound brilliant when paired up with a Bespoke passive transformer feeding SET into horns. It’s all just mix n match as you know.

Maybe your just going to just have to take the plunge, buy then try, or spend a lot more or limit yourself to gear that you get the comfort of trying before buying. We takes our risks we pays our money... if you are willing to buy gear unheard then you can’t afford to be too risk averse, perhaps just take a punt, enjoy the moment of discovery and hopefully live happily ever after (the great audiophile illusion) or if necessary live with the outcome till you then trade out of it. If you want to know exactly what the outcome will be you might need choose something you can audition instead which limits you in other ways but I’m sure there’s plenty to love over there in the Blighty balanced or not.
 

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